Browser search toolbars

You may notice that we're starting to distribute optional browser search toolbars from Ask.com during the uTorrent install process. This isn't on all downloads yet, but will be phased in over the coming days. While we recognize this might not be popular among some of our loyal users, ultimately we felt this step was necessary to help fund the continued feature development of exciting forthcoming features of uTorrent freeware. We'd also note a few other things:

- the toolbar is optional and will always be optional – you can choose not to have it and you will never be forced to get it

- the toolbar is only physically downloaded if the offer is accepted, so the uTorrent download bundle will retain its existing micro-size

- we will never distribute or offer any malware or any software that compromises your privacy or online safety

We'd welcome any feedback or comments at product@utorrent.com.

Best regards,

The uTorrent Product Team

why don't you record this change/build in the regular 1.8.2 release change-log/thread ? better yet - leave 1.8.2 alone and put it in 1.8.3 beta ...

Because it's not needed.

Simon Morris said: "- the toolbar is optional and will always be optional – you can choose not to have it and you will never be forced to get it"

There are those of us with LONG memories (I was a beta-tester of BearShare, which resorted to "optional" then automatic then SILENT install of questionable 3rd party software)...that will be holding you to your word that this will stay OPTIONAL.

Not needed?!

Alright, what other changes and additions have been added to the program that didn't make the changelog?

-- Smoovious

we will never distribute or offer any malware or any software that compromises your privacy or online safety

All (and Simon),

The problem with these toolbars is that they generally report back to their owners a list of all of the sites one visits. The Ask toolbar currently seems to be an exception -- it neither stores nor reports back where users go on the web. (sources -- http://about.ask.com/en/docs/about/ask_eula.shtml and http://dl.ask.com/toolbar/moz/faq.html#na5 -- both indicating that the toolbar won't phone home.)

Both Yahoo's toolbar and, even moreso, Google's toolbar communicates when and where users surf in support of features and these communications enable tracking. Privacy conscience users must turn these features off. It appears to me that Ask is taking the other approach, and waits for users to turn on a feature that would cause an interaction with Ask's servers. Personally, I like Ask's approach better.

I would like to ask that if a user opts not to install the toolbar, that this election is remembered on subsequent updates (overinstalls or reinstalls). One thing I hate about Java updates is that I constantly have to tell it that I don't want Yahoo's toolbar -- one thing computers were supposed to do for us was to eliminate repetitive tasks, so why do I tell Java's installer "No" every time?

ultimately we felt this step was necessary to help fund the continued feature development of exciting forthcoming features of uTorrent freeware

Should we interpret this to mean that there is a non-freeware version in someone's vision?

The toolbar installer prompt only occurs on new installs. An update doesn't/shouldn't cause the installer to show up, so there's no reason µTorrent would ask to install the toolbar on every update.

@Smoovious: http://forum.utorrent.com/viewtopic.php?pid=404033#p404033

Ultima, let me say it clearly, and out load: it seems that several people have a feeling (at least I do...) that someone is trying to not make this simple update/fact so public. That's why it's not in the change-log. Instead of "hiding" it in some obscure thread, why not just put it at the proper place as it should have been from the start...

Sorry if I was too blant...

This is a sticky with an official announcement/statement about the addition of the browser toolbar, in the second most posted-in subforum (behind Troubleshooting), and it's still considered obscure and suspicious? There is a discussion too in the 1.8.2 discussion thread with a link here that (unsurprisingly) haven't been censored, and the matter still isn't considered to be public (or public enough)? The addition of the toolbar to the installer routine has been fully disclosed both in this thread and in the 1.8.2 thread, and while I won't say I necessarily agree with the lack of a changelog, I really don't see why there needs to be a fuss on the matter either.

When v1.8.1 build 12639 was released without a mention in the changelog, why didn't anyone complain? The change then was insignificant and affected only the installer, and the change was announced in the thread discussion, but not the first post. It's the same exact situation here, only this change was announced in its own dedicated sticky for open/focused discussion. What's more wrong about the disclosure this time that's causing the fuss now, but not before?

A couple of follow-up comments:

(1) @ rafi – the reason we first put this in the stable rather than beta release was that we didn't want to be seen to be what are essentially "ads" in the beta release – the one that community members are kind enough to volunteer to help us test – this was a judgment call that I think reasonable people could differ over – this is just what we elected to do. We weren't making any changes to the actual client, hence nothing in the changelog, but perhaps we should try to offer comments in the changelog in the future. (To be honest we got a bit tied up wondering if we should change the changelog of a stable client after release, but didn't want to put this stuff out on the beta… - we'll try to handle better in future.)

(2) @ Switeck – we're aware that guardians of earlier P2P communities have betrayed the trust of their communities in order to make a fast buck. We have no intention of repeating those sad tales. We do need to make some money to pay for ongoing development, but we're committed to the fundamentals of an awesome free lightweight feature-rich Bittorrent client. Probably we'll test other stuff in the future. Maybe we'll even offer some subscription services. But popularity is the heart-and-soul of uTorrent and we will work hard to retain the trust of those who make the free client so popular.

(3) @ Smoovius – I don't think anything else was in the changelog – the toolbar is still only available on a small % today, and we have several glitches we need to solve before we're ready to roll it out, so minor changes are being made in the next few weeks. We may also offer localized toolbars for different locales, so some minor installer tinkering may be called for.

(4) @ funchords – thanks for the feedback on Ask – while there is no connection between their app and ours beyond install time, I'll pass on to them the fact that we view this privacy policy as an important one to maintain.

(5) @ Ultima – thanks for the historical perspective – we'll probably continue to make the odd trivial change, but with hindsight maybe a logged change would have served us better on this one. Oh well, live and learn…

Overall we're not trying to hide or obscure what we're doing. But also we're not heavily promoting this one either. It is what it is – a regular plain-vanilla browser search toolbar that we get some revenue from.

The first objective here is simply revenue through something that is always optional, and hopefully not terribly controversial.

A longer term objective here (really longer term, nothing concrete yet) relates to how browser technology evolves into the future. We are interested in the progressive evolution of the "webtop" and blurring of any effective lines between browser and OS. To this end we are looking at developing a more customized (still optional) toolbar for uTorrent that will expose some info that is useful for uTorrent users as well as a method for us to earn some money. (In case its not obvious, we share revenue on ads placed against search results from the toolbar.) I'd be interested in your opinions if you think a more customized uTorrent search toolbar would be more successful for us, or if you think we should simply focus on better features in the client and continue to distribute an optional plain-vanilla search toolbar.

I appreciate the feedback and am happy to talk more about plans on this thread or via email (simon@...) I won't promise we'll always get it right, but we'll try to listen and improve.

Ultima:

while I won't say I necessarily agree with the lack of a change-log, I really don't see why there needs to be a fuss on the matter either.

I must say I missed the anouncement, but still there was no MUCH fuss, I just mentioned it's not in the change-log.

Simon:

- we'll try to handle better in future

lot's of people have probably upgraded their client twice cause of that change. It's just that inside a beta you could have avoided that. and you can still handle it better, by still putting the first build it was in - in the change-log ...

edit:

s /twice/3 times/

I can already imagine this toolbar might cause extra troubleshooting problems. Even with its installation being conditional/optional, it could potentially be an issue with someone trying to install uTorrent and their software firewall/ad+popup blocker/file+program access rights management having fits over it.

Just something to test for in the lab as well as on unwitting beta-testers.

@rafi:

http://forum.utorrent.com/viewtopic.php?pid=404926#p404926

http://forum.utorrent.com/viewtopic.php?pid=404933#p404933

http://forum.utorrent.com/viewtopic.php?pid=405063#p405063

http://forum.utorrent.com/viewtopic.php?pid=404069#p404069

http://forum.utorrent.com/viewtopic.php?pid=405581#p405581

Bringing it up that many times after Richard and Simon already explained the changes seems to me like making a fuss, especially the last one where (for whatever reason) you explicitly indicate that you're going to make a big deal ("clearly, and out loud"). I didn't really say how much of a fuss was made, just that a fuss was made, so quantifying "how much" is irrelevant.

To be clear, I do see and sympathize with your point of view. It's just that these changes are installer related, and as such, don't really need a changelog entry given the other explanations abound in the forum and the fact that installer-related changes don't affect existing users (for whom changelogs are targeted). But whatever, let's let bygones be bygones.

So (as if it weren't official enough already), let's mention it in the official announcement thread about the browser toolbar: v1.8.2 build 15123 was the first public build to include the optional toolbar in the installer, though it isn't (yet) prompted for all installs (only a certain percentage of new installs).

in order not to repeat myself: http://forum.utorrent.com/viewtopic.php?pid=405833#p405833

One of the things I really liked about uTorrent was that it came as a single EXE file that didn't need to be installed. I didn't have to worry about what changes it might make to my system. I just created a directory for it and make a shortcut.

Now that you've started bundling a toolbar with it, uTorrent comes with an installer that runs through all the usual crap that all Windows installers insist on. I no longer know exactly what it's doing to my system. How do I know that it isn't going to screw something up? Sure, I know that practically every other Windows program forces you to use an installer, but uTorrent was different. I will actually go out of my way to find and use programs that don't need to be "installed".

Why not just bundle the toolbar installer inside a Zip file along with the plain EXE for uTorrent? Could it be because you know that NOBODY would install it voluntarily? I've never installed one of these browser toolbars and I never will.

Bundled extras that aren't directly related to the main program will always be known as crapware. No matter how innocent the intentions of the authors, they make users suspicious and taint the reputation of any software they're included with. The large majority of users don't want them and regard them as straight out malware. The only people who will install this are newbies who don't know any better and who just keep clicking Next until the installer is finished.

I hope the money you make off this toolbar is worth the users you'll lose over it.

I have a version 1.8.2, build 14458 that I downloaded a couple months ago, which has no installer or toolbar. I'll be sticking with that one.

1.8.2 14458 has an installer... uTorrent has had one for a long time now, long before 1.8.2 ever came out. But it still allowed you to run it standalone (by hitting cancel). Auto-upgrades don't show the installer (and they still don't).

This newer installer still allows you to run utorrent standalone, by unchecking "Install uTorrent in", which will run it in-place, like before. No installation at all. So your concerns are unfounded, since you can still run it without installing. This standalone mode won't ever be removed.

It's still not a "real" installer, in that when it installs itself, it just moves itself to whatever dir you picked, just like all the previous versions. The toolbar itself isn't bundled in the exe, so it doesn't bloat the file either.

@ Rekrul - as Firon points out, we're not taking away the ability you'll have to run uTorrent without installing - that functionality is there today and will remain.

While I asked for feedback, I guess I was hoping for something constructive. I'm getting the message that you don't like the Ask toolbar - fair enough. How do you think we should cover our costs? As I said in a previous post, we're looking into the idea of a customized toolbar - one that adds uTorrent-specific functionality. (Again optional of course). Thoughts? We're looking into some other things too which might help us cover the bills.

We're also continuing to invest heavily in a better free uTorrent client with great new features in the free client that help you automatically traverse firewalls and manage bandwidth dynamically without having to constantly tweak limits. This latter feature is "uTP" - which while not explicitly designed to evade ISP traffic shaping, it is designed to remove the only potentially valid reason an ISP would ever have to shape bittorrent traffic. This is big news not just for you but for the whole internet. This type of magic doesn't happen for free. It also isn't happening in any other bittorrent client (although we are standardizing the technology for it at the IETF, so hopefully others will adopt it in time).

If you don't want to support us and object to us even asking for support like this, and really need to go use another client or an older uTorrent client, then thats a pity.

When you employ engineers, you normally need to pay them.

I hope we don't lose users by offering something free and optional.

Just like I hope that most users understand we need to somehow get supported to build new features.

And I hope that the new features that we'll be able to build funded by these cautious monetization strategies will result in ever greater popularity for what I hope remains the world's best bittorrent client.

@Rekrul: If you're looking for an "installer-less" µTorrent, you're going to have to go far back into versions even prior to BitTorrent Inc's purchase of µTorrent off of ludde's hands. The only changes made to the installer since the ludde days have been the change in presentation, and the ability to move the executable to a more standardized location (%ProgramFiles%\uTorrent) -- and now the toolbar. Going back to 14458 to avoid the installer is like going back to 1.8.0 to try and avoid non-ludde builds of µTorrent, or something.

@Simon: For the most part, I wouldn't expect there to be that much constructive criticism on the toolbar. People either hate it, or are indifferent/understanding (yet cautious) about it, as you might've already noticed in this thread. It's easy to complain, but clearly not so easy for people to suggest how one could go about earning money.

At best, some people on IRC have suggested turning to donations, but it's uncertain (to me) how viable that is an alternative, or how likely people would willingly donate to a commercial operation they've effectively maligned for past (irrelevant) deals with other companies.

in addition to the correct remarks by Ultima, usually, I do offer alternative/suggestions related to new features. In this case I had only one issue to comment on - the way it was (minimally) published, and wrongly located (none beta version).

as a 1.8.3 user I actually never saw it. As soon as details/record will be available in the change-logs (link to the change-log IS in the official download page) - I'll gladly comment on it.

Edit:

a few more remarks&ideas:

* As I suggested in the past - enhancing of the internal search mechanism that may lead to more revenues. I would add such features as:

- searches history list (saved for next session

- default search engines list (forth e ones you have dealings with, could be auto-added to currently existing list the user have

* RSS related enhancements:

- Add the option for enhanced search/filter into defined RSS feeds (with uTorrent as a reference)

- Add reference or view to TV shows' sites (like tv.com) for both series/episodes contents as well as optional schedule (see TED utility for more ideas)

http://forum.utorrent.com/viewtopic.php?id=44903

* and more...

Optional Toolbar is not the only possible revenues' generator ...

I think the crucial issue has been addressed by funchords (his post), it's about Ask's TOS and especially privacy policy.

It seems Ask toolbar doesn't communicate with Ask's servers during the install or when users are using uTorrent or browsing the Web (no tracking or personal data collecting). It's a good point for user privacy and uTorrent transparency.

Anyway Ask toolbar stays a third-party addon and external to uTorrent (and its owner). Some users can be afraid of its potential privacy-invasive capacity. Especially if the toolbar is detected as adware by some security softwares (search on Google, there are some results about Ask toolbar) even if the warning is a false-positive.

I didn't test the last 1.8.2 builds but it can be more transparent if a disclaimer about Ask's EULA and privacy policy (e.g. text + urls to Ask's website) is displayed on uTorrent installer. If that's already the case, it's fine.

Same thing on uTorrent website to mention the joint venture with Ask. The percentage of people reading this sticky is surely low even if the aim is clearly explained (the need to make money to continue the dev of the client).

Voilà my opinion.

1.8.2 14458 has an installer... uTorrent has had one for a long time now, long before 1.8.2 ever came out. But it still allowed you to run it standalone (by hitting cancel). Auto-upgrades don't show the installer (and they still don't).

Past versions allowed you to hit Cancel and the program ran normally.

This newer installer still allows you to run utorrent standalone, by unchecking "Install uTorrent in", which will run it in-place, like before. No installation at all.

Thank you for the information. Having to proceed at least one page into the installer and then uncheck an option to use stand-alone mode isn't exactly intuitive. With the past versions, if I user didn't want to use the installer, they clicked Cancel and basically stumbled onto stand-alone mode by default. I never found it in the latest version because I cancelled the installer immediately, like the previous versions and it just quit.

While I asked for feedback, I guess I was hoping for something constructive. I'm getting the message that you don't like the Ask toolbar - fair enough. How do you think we should cover our costs?

I don't know. I'm just stating that add-on toolbars have a bad reputation and the large majority of people don't like them, no matter how innocent they might be. While people might trust your company, they have less trust for large corporations that want to place software on their systems. Right or wrong, the whole idea of installing software that basically reports back to the company (no matter how anonymously) just "irks" people. I know that nothing on the net is truly anonymous, but people at least like to believe that others aren't watching them.

And before anyone jumps to conclusions, I'm not saying that I believe these toolbars report back every little thing you do online, but they do track certain information about you. They have to, or they'd have no way of knowing how many people installed them, or what ads they were looking at.

As I said in a previous post, we're looking into the idea of a customized toolbar - one that adds uTorrent-specific functionality. (Again optional of course). Thoughts? We're looking into some other things too which might help us cover the bills.

I'm probably the wrong person to ask. These toolbars seek to integrate things like web searches, but I prefer to keep things separate so there's no confusion. I even took the search box off the Firefox toolbar (partly to save space). When I want to do a Google search for something, I just go to Google. When I want to search for a torrent, I go to the torrent sites and search.

We're also continuing to invest heavily in a better free uTorrent client with great new features in the free client that help you automatically traverse firewalls and manage bandwidth dynamically without having to constantly tweak limits.

I'd settle for a feature that doesn't kill my internet connection after uTorrent has been running for a few hours, requiring a reboot.

I've tried adjusting the number of connections and all the various settings. I've tried only downloading one torrent at a time. I've tried removing all but one tracker from the list of trackers. uTorrent still kills the connection pretty much every time.

I hope we don't lose users by offering something free and optional.

Just like I hope that most users understand we need to somehow get supported to build new features.

Although the situations aren't quite the same, and you were more open and honest about it, bundling the toolbar with uTorrent brough back bad memories of a similar incident with Divx.

Divx.com using to offer a codec-only download for those who wanted it. Then they started bundling the Divx player with the codec, increasing the download by several megs. They claimed that they had to or new users would be confused. Later, they added the Google Toolbar to the bundle. They all swore up and down that they were including it because it was the greatest piece of software ever and that they thought everyone whould have it. After much badgering, one of the developers finally admitted that it was done purely for financial reasons.

Not only that, but many people reported that the toolbar was installed automatically without ever asking them. This was dismissed as paranoia or user error by the developers. A short while later, a user discovered exactly what was going on; After clicking the Next button, the toolbar page didn't appear for several seconds on some systems. This made people believe that the click hadn't registered and they clicked it again. Since the toolbar was opt-out, this lead to the toolbar being installed without the users ever seeing the option. This was reported in the forum and the developers ignored it. After many more complaints of the toolbar being installed without permission, one of the developers "discovered" a "rare" condition that could cause the toolbar screen not to appear for several seconds. When I pointed out that a user had already reported this bug months (and several versions) before, I was basically told that it wasn't the same thing even though this "newly discovered" bug was EXACTLY what the user had reported. They tried to act as if they hadn't been made aware of this bug long before the official "discovery" of it.

The whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth and has made me suspicious of any software that wants to include third-party software.

A donation button might not be viable but it may bring in some revenue to stave off the ask toolbar. I for one however have issues with the toolbar itself.

Garbage! I uninstalled the Ask Toolbar from a relatives computer as it replaced Google as the default search engine for address bar based searches, and it did NOT undo these changes from Firefox. After I had reset the appropriate settings, which by the way has to be done from about:config, so that address bar searches are done with Google, I then got an error about a missing file! I had to reset another option that talked about some extension that wasn't even in the add-ons menu.

While researching the issue I found reports of it happening both before and after Ask Toolbar UNINSTALL, also interesting is the dates of the posts and how this happened quite recently. Relevant forum thread: http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=934345

Thankyou for the continued feedback. I have passed the more specific feedback (good and bad) on to Ask.

@GTHK - Ask told me that they did indeed have a problem in the Fall of last year that they fixed, but this should not be a problem now. If you have more specifics I'm happy to pass them on directly to someone who will help.

1.82 Update: In the interests of more locally relevant offers, today we are going to be swapping the option of an browser search toolbar from Ask.com to Yandex. Yandex is a very popular search engine in Russia. No other changes.

This type of magic doesn't happen for free.

Sorry. Who got paid to code uTorrent in the first place, or to invent torrents at all for that matter?

Someone who was doing it as a hobby, but outgrew their hobby. Just because someone makes available the fruits of their hobby for free doesn't mean it costs them nothing to produce. Are you suggesting that a company simply shouldn't pay their employees, or that the company should do it at a loss?