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Initial Seeding vs. Start Seeding


punlman

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Initial Seeding vs. Start Seeding

Questions:

(1) Is the "Start Seeding" checkbox... in the Create New Torrent wizard... THE SAME THINGS AS the "Initial Seeding" in the torrent properties...

I read the FAQ question about Initial Seeding ( http://utorrent.com/faq.php#Does_.C2.B5Torrent_support_Super_Seeding_mode.3F ), but there is no mention there of the "Start Seeding" checkbox in the Create New Torrent wizard.

So, what does the "Start Seeding" checkbox in the Create New Torrent wizard... do?

(2) Do YOU guys use the Super Seeding (aka "Initial Seeding") when doing an initial seed?

What has been your experience with that feature? Do you leave it on permanently? Or do you turn OFF "Initial Seeding" as soon as a second seed appears in the swarm?

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Initial seeding mode "clocks off" piece by piece to be sure all your 100-plus peers on your new torrent end up getting the data, while you only send it out once. In this mode, from what I understand, uTorrent more uniformly sends out pieces, by checking which ones people already have, and sending out those that people don't have, one after the other. In normal seeding mode, it's first come first serve, all you can download buffet - and you may end up sending the whole torrent a total of 2 or 3 times before everyone finally has a full copy.

Azureus does it pretty well but it won't STAY in super-seeding mode; it keeps falling back to normal "seeding" mode long before everyone has a copy. That was highly annoying. uTorrent stays in initial seeding mode until you tell it not to... which also has the problem that if you have it in initial seeding mode when there's more than one seed, you tend to louse things up. :P

And that's a crash course in super seeding. :D

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Cool. Thanks much!

It seems like the super-seeding mode ("initial seeding" as it's called in uTorrent) should be smart enough to turn itself off once enough people have a full copy and are seeding.

I can see myself forgetting to turn it off.

Does forgetting to turn if off... "louse things up" for EVERYONE...? or only for ME...and MY connections...?

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Well, if you're one of two seeds, for example, the other seed will be giving out all the data everyone wants, while you will be clocking off pieces like you're the only seed. I don't know if it really causes anyone undue issues, but... it's just not an optimum situation. :P

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Wait a minute....

That begs the next question that came to my mind....

"Initial Seeding is slower than normal seeding."

AND

"...hence only want to have to seed for 2 days instead of 4."

DO NOT jive...

Is "Initial Seeding" slower OVERALL... for ALL of the swarm...?

~or~

Is "Initial Seeding" slower for the initial Seeder, himself...?

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I'd actually disagree completely with what Dark Shroud said... using "initial seeding" mode does not make your upload faster or slower, but what it does do is organize the typically-chaotic "pattern" of normal seeding. You still remain a normal seeder, but you do a better job of organizing how data is sent out, under the knowledge that you are the only person providing data to people, and that the person you send data to will in turn send it to everyone else as well.

It makes sense to super-seed (initial seed) large torrents more so than to do small torrents, because the small torrents will "evolve" much quicker into normal swarms than would a large torrent with lots of data and lots of on-and-off peers trying to get it. The biggest flood comes right when you initially upload a torrent, so you have to manage these peers. After the torrent is sent out to everyone at least once, initial-seeding is no longer necessary, since seeders and peers will come and go here and there, and it basically maintains itself without your help (as opposed to the beginning, when you are the only person on the internet with that data).

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Dark Shroud: I disagree. It's very useful. I was doing initial seeding with a connection that has 3mbyte/s upload, because without it, I'd uploaded 40GB of a 7GB torrent and still couldn't get a single freakin' seeder (availability was some pathetic amount). I turned on IS and sure, my upload dropped to like 700KB, but I got seeders a lot faster.

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Wow!

Cool....

Ok, now I understand a lot more about why initial seeding (super seeding) is important... especially on large torrents.

This will be very useful because I'm planning to create a torrent that will be about... just over 15GB...

Another couple questions...

(1) How do I know... When is the optimal time to Turn Off "initial seeding"...?

When the torrent reaches what condition...?

(2) Even though I am the original Seeder... Now that it shows Seeds as: 0(43)

That means that there are 43 Seeders now...? Even though I am connected to 0 right now...?

And it's too late for me to turn on "Initial Seeding" at this point...?

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The "Availability" bar/number is the "swarm percentage" indicator. As long as you are seeding, it will be above 1.0, but between 1.0 and 2.0 is where the overall swarm does not have one full copy of the file. So if it says "1.459", that means the overall swarm has 45.9% of the torrent. When it finally gets to "1.999", you'll probably never see 2.0 for long... because those people will automatically become seeds and disconnect from you. The only time you'll ever see "2.0" or higher as a seeder is when you see more than one distributed copy across all the peers... meaning more than one person has a copy of every piece. For example, joe has 1, 3, 5, john has 1, 2, 4, and jane has 1, 3, and 4 - piece 1 was repeated 3 times, 3 was repeated twice, and while nobody has the whole file yet, the whole file is available to everyone after they exchange a few pieces.

You can also stop seeding completely after the swarm reaches "2.0" if you so desire - that is, if you have more important things to upload. Generally speaking, provided some pricks don't pull out of the torrent at 99% completion or do a hit-and-run, the torrent will sustain itself even if there are no formal "seeders" yet and you're in a hurry to start the next one.

This is some really advanced torrent-world optimization you're having us think about here... a VERY WELCOME break from the normal n00b "how do i are play my avi plz" questions! Thanks!! :D

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(oops, Ultima... I snuck a 2nd question in there... just as you answered the 1st one...)

I have one torrent that has an "Avail" of 13.999 It's a 24.6BG torrent.

One that has Avail of 2.816

One that has Avail of 2.111

NONE of these I seeded... mind you.

Is that odd?

Of course, most of them are all between 0 and 2.

The ones I have Queued to seed are all at 1.000

If the Avail is 0.279 Does that mean that it looks hopeless that I'll be able to get the whole thing...?

And...

"When there is another seeder on the swarm besides yourself."

Here's a really dumb question....

Is this when Seeds is 0(1) ?

Or when Seeds is 1(1) ?

Or either one... it doesn't matter?

And since you brought it up, Falcon.... How DO i are play my avi plz?

:D

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0 (2), as 1 (1) can't happen if you're seeding, and 0 (1) would mean there isn't another seed on the swarm.

And after rethinking the question, though, I think it's probably better to wait until the availability has reached 2.0 for the exact reasons that Falcon4 cited.

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After all these years I'm still clueless as to what in the unholy name of Fuck the "(x)" numbers mean. I know the first number means how many I'm connected to, and I know the details page shows how many there are in the swarm, but how many in swarm and this mysterious "(x)" number never agree with each other. It makes no sense. I always look at that number to see, logically, how many really are in the swarm, but I'm coming more and more to the conclusion that uT just pulls those numbers out of its ass :(

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(Ever think that that burning might be, in fact, WHY you understand...) :)

I'm glad YOU get it...

I have a torrent that says, right now,....

SEEDS PEERS

2(26) 73(615)

And the GENERAL tabs says...

Seeds: 2 of 26 connected (18 in swarm) Peers: 73 of 615 connected (221 in swarm)

So am I understanding correctly... that I am CONNECTED to 2 Seeders... out of 26 total that exist...

And I am connected to 73 Peers... out of the 615 total that exist... ?

And...

How is a swarm defined? If I am not connected to them... then how could they be in my swarm?

i.e. In this example, if I am connected to 73 Peers.... How could I have 221 Peers in my swarm...?

Something is not adding up.... in the way I am reading the meaning of these numbers... :)

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The questions are getting into the "already answered" territory again :<

Again, the manual describes everything, including those numbers, and even still, there are many discussions about that question if you search for brackets on the forum.

Edit: Forgot to say that the manual is a bit outdated in terms of the definitions... Check this thread for further clarification...

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Ok... I read that entire thread. Whew!

But.....

And I'm not sure if you want this posted here... or there... but...

In it, you say, "the number in the parentheses is the number of actual seeds seen in the swarm."

Meanwhile, in my example from above....

~~

SEEDS PEERS

2(26) 73(615)

And the GENERAL tabs says...

Seeds: 2 of 26 connected (18 in swarm) Peers: 73 of 615 connected (221 in swarm)

~~

The number in the parentheses is 26 for seeds... and 615 for peers...

Yet on the General tab, it says "18 in swarm" for seeds... and "221 in swarm" for peers....

So why does the SEEDS column tell me there are 26 in the swarm [i.e. 2(26) ], and the General tab tell me there are 18 in the swarm [i.e. (18 in swarm) ]...?

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AH!!! THAT is the question! The one thing I couldn't understand.

"OF" and "IN SWARM". What the fuck? How could there be more/less in swarm and "of"? What's "Of" mean? I know doing a LAN torrent between two computers that the "of" number can be fucky, like "of 16" or something... when there's only one other computer in the world with that unique data...

So yup... I still don't get it.

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