TheDude Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 A 12x download limit occurs only when you severely limit your upload rate on a per-torrent basis, and it affects things only on a per-torrent basis. This behavior has been in the 1.8.x builds for the longest time now.This ignores the existence of Private Trackers that have Ratio enforcement that is per-user rather than per-torrent.On some trackers, I have an upload-to-download ratio of 2, 3, 4 or more. On those trackers, I previously uploaded a lot on old torrents with few seeders - the most advantageous uploading for the tracker as a whole.When a new popular torrent appears with hundreds of peers, I severely limit my upload.On many trackers, the ability to upload is severly limited by the massive bandwidth of Far East Asia broadband users. On those trackers, the ability to upload in order to meet minimum ratio requirements is highly prized. Some users with ratios greater than 1 are often criticized for hogging the uploading.Please do not implement well-intentioned, but not well thought out restrictions.Thanks!PS You may find many thousands of users never updating beyond 1.7.7 if you implement this...Please reconsider this "feature" before 1.8 is released.and please re-read this message slowly before replying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jewelisheaven Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 12x limiting has been in since the beginning. It expands the global ratio control that's been in since ... forever http://utorrent.com/faq.php#What_does_Download_Limited_in_the_status_bar_mean.3F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hermanm Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 Okay, let's say your private tracker has 50,000 peers. Compare that to ThePirateBay who said they recently reached 12 million peers. You're saying you want a feature change that would affect at best less than 1/2 of 1% versus a feature that would help over 99% of users. Your issue is an overabundance of high-speed seeders. I can think of worse problems to face on a private tracker. The issue you describe is something between you, other members, and the private tracker's policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDude Posted April 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 Okay, let's say your private tracker has 50,000 peers. Compare that to ThePirateBay who said they recently reached 12 million peers. You're saying you want a feature change that would affect at best less than 1/2 of 1% versus a feature that would help over 99% of users.First, I don't want a feature change. What I want is for it to remain the same as all released versions of utorrent.Second, even if you don't remove the new feature, it is easy and simple to make everyone happy. When a torrent has the "private flag", disable the download limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hermanm Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 > "private flag", disable the download limitA torrent with a private flag does not automatically equal private tracker. Worse case, you upload at 10 kB/s and download at 120 kB/s. That's a lot better than not being able to finish your torrent because some heavy leecher takes off after uploading very little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jewelisheaven Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 ... There no limit @ 4 KiBps for single torrents and 6 KiBps for global upload limit. As you see those limits discourage people from crippling their upload intentionally and allow people WITH such upload limits to do so while still allowing them to download at their full line potential. Dialup speeds cannot not exceed ~ 256Kbps so there's no problem.You're not the first to make an issue out of this but it's a non-issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firon Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 I hope you realize it only applies to certain very low upload caps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDude Posted April 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2008 I hope you realize it only applies to certain very low upload caps.I have to say that people are reading the Topic Title and then posting, without reading my post.If you don't belong to a private tracker, you don't understand the situation - it's just the opposite of the situation on public trackers.On many torrents on sites where I have a very high ratio, I make a point of not uploading at all, in order to benefit everyone else.Forcing the client to upload on every torrent, is going to make it even harder for newbies at private trackers to reach an acceptable ratio.In summary, it is just misguided parental behavior - "utorrent knows better than you about what you should be doing".People who want to cheat on public trackers can always find clients which will let them do so, so it is pointless for utorrent to try to tell them what to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jewelisheaven Posted April 30, 2008 Report Share Posted April 30, 2008 ... If it's pointless to prevent cheating (aka no uploading) use one of them if you don't want to upload.It's not getting removed with logic like that, that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firon Posted April 30, 2008 Report Share Posted April 30, 2008 If you wanna help newbies more, download the torrent after a day, once the seedboxes stop being ratio whores.Or beg the tracker staff to disallow counting of ratio above a certain amount (or come up with a better system than just plain ratio, as many sites have done). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jewelisheaven Posted April 30, 2008 Report Share Posted April 30, 2008 Better than ratio? I think a max ratio per torrent is quite suave ... You only get credit for X upload... Though it's a bit unfair if you're perpetually the sole-seeder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firon Posted April 30, 2008 Report Share Posted April 30, 2008 Not hard to make exceptions. Or apply it to only global ratio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Switeck Posted April 30, 2008 Report Share Posted April 30, 2008 Ah, the insanity of private torrents.Having a fast upload speed isn't always enough to maintain a high ratio.The removal of per-torrent policing won't help the fundamental problem:Uploaders may not find downloaders in a timely manner on private torrents that have >200 seeds and <10 peers.The tracker typically only hands out 50 or fewer ips per update, and there may be a few repeats.Peer Exchange isn't allowed so seeds cannot find out about other peers from 1 peer.Often, by the time you find a peer...they're already over 80% completed.You can only hope that after awhile new peers find you...so you almost HAVE to be unfirewalled!Having a high half open rate might help slightly...so you can spam as many ips as quickly as possible to find a peer while it still has a low percentage completed.This problem might be even worse if the torrents are relatively small, such as 50 MB or less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The8472 Posted April 30, 2008 Report Share Posted April 30, 2008 Private tracker systems are flawed... don't ask client developers to work around those flaws, ask the tracker admins to fix the issues at their root insteadsee http://www.azureuswiki.com/index.php/User:The8472/Private_trackers for further arguments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDude Posted May 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 I've been involved with torrents for years, since the beginning.Here is the bottom line:The idea that there is a lack of uploading on torrents is a myth. Period.Over the years, even on public sites with no controls, and on torrents with lots of clients that are frowned upon in this Forum (you know the ones I mean), there is always plenty of uploading.The only times that I ever find a torrent with insufficient uploading is:- When the torrent is really old, months and months old, OR- When the torrent is only being seeded by people who are seeding dozens and dozens of torrents, and the number of torrents they are seeding is more than their kb/s, so less than 1 kb/s is allocated per torrent. (They do this because they set all their torrents to keep seeding until each torrent reaches 1.0 ratio, and many will never reach that, since the torrents are mostly seeded by Far East Asia users with very large bandwidth.)In neither case, do any of the enforcement measures by clients help. So, there is no real world torrent situation where any of these limits are necessary or helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hermanm Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 > there is always plenty of uploading.And this is why I prefer public trackers over private trackers. Public trackers always have more seeders and always have faster downloads than private trackers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jewelisheaven Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 If you have to SAY you've done torrenting from the beginning that shows a suspicion people don't believe you...If there's "always" and "lack of uploading on torrents is a myth" why do you need to clarify RIGHT below??I have no problems with BitComet/ BitSpirit/ BitLord... I regularly get peers with fast uploads from .jp (asia) .kr (that's karoo right?, also asia) .se (not asia) .fi (not asia) .nl (not asia)....Alot of problems with this upload restrictions you say are based upon some locality whether it's geographic or cultural. Say you're trying to get raw anime rips... from a western country >< Certainly your speeds will be affected more than say if you were in the "crippled" lines of .my or .in due to the dearth of trans-oceanic cables currently. Similarly the reverse is likely true as well if you're seeding something of asian-persuasion and lots of those peers hop on and comment you or PM you saying "your upload is slow"...I completely agree too many people run clients with broken settings. This is why the ENFORCEMENT (with plenty of information available) of "minimum" speeds for "optimal" downloads is a good thing. I know you're not going to use 1KiB intentionally to snub peers if the feature were removed. HOWEVER that is not the case with many users because they don't know what they're doing. Default settings should work for most users and be configurable for those who want to customize their environment. This is where uT excels and something like this does not continue in that direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDude Posted May 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 I know you're not going to use 1KiB intentionally to snub peers if the feature were removed. HOWEVER that is not the case with many users because they don't know what they're doing. Default settings should work for most users and be configurable for those who want to customize their environment. This is where uT excels and something like this does not continue in that direction.Okay, then make it configurable in Advanced Settings:bt.torrent.enforcement true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jewelisheaven Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 Not going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoOneButMe Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 On many torrents on sites where I have a very high ratio, I make a point of not uploading at all, in order to benefit everyone else.I dont know what trackers you belong to, but the one's I've been on at some point or another all encouraged people to seed as much as they could. Never heard "Oh, you've seeded 10:1. stop seeding or we'll ban you" before. And I cant imagine trackers like that being very good. I can barely break 150kb/s on public trackers with no enforcement of any sort where it's full of bad/hacked clients. On private trackers with ratio or client restrictions, I can easily max a 100mbit box out. Calling the "Lack of uploading on public trackers" a myth is ridiculous. Hopping onto a torrent with a fast connection will show that you'll end up with download speeds that are really slow and upload speeds that are really high.If you dont want to seed, dont keep the torrent running. If you've "been involved with torrents for years" you would know what the "Stop Transfer" button does. ..many will never reach that, since the torrents are mostly seeded by Far East Asia users with very large bandwidth.Oh that's complete BS. There's as many people who download stuff from Europe/America as there are in Asia. Just because you primarily download anime (which is probably mostly seeded from Asia), doesn't mean that the rest of people that use Bittorrent download the same things you do. .nl/.se/.fi all have speeds of 100mbit and lots of downloaders. There's people with servers in .de/.fr/.us as well which have 100mbit (or even gigabit if they can afford it). Asia != only place with fast connections. Hell, Verizon FiOS is fast in the US with 50mbit down and 10mbit up. Not quite 100mbit but still its decent for most usage.As for the enforcing you dislike? How did you notice it? On some forum? It doesn't affect most people - it only affects you if you limit your upload to a very very slow rate prior to finishing the download. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDude Posted May 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 That's a classic standard Internet Forum post - nitpick about certain phrases, while totally ignoring the main points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jewelisheaven Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 ... pot meet kettle. You did the same to mine. I wrote three paragraphs, you only replied to the part you agree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDude Posted May 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 ... pot meet kettle. You did the same to mine. I wrote three paragraphs, you only replied to the part you agree with.No, not the same.I didn't reply to the other parts of your message because I agreed with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoOneButMe Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 That's a classic standard Internet Forum post - nitpick about certain phrases, while totally ignoring the main points.Yet you ignored the last section of my post where i directly referred to your point. Don't go "tl; dr, you're an idiot" when you're accusing someone of doing the same. To humor you though.. Is there anything in my post that's wrong? Or do you just disagree with the fact that i wrote it at all?Done humoring you. Time to refresh your memory: As for the enforcing you dislike? How did you notice it? On some forum? It doesn't affect most people - it only affects you if you limit your upload to a very very slow rate prior to finishing the download.The bottom line is your request isn't something that will benefit people overall. Many people > one random person; especially when one random person is making a request that has been discussed previously and shot down.To reiterate: The cap only affects you if you limit your download to <= 3kb/s. This is normally done by people who want to leech. It's been done in various build since 1.3 without you complaining (or noticing probably). There's no real problem here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Switeck Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 TheDude,If you DON'T want a particular torrent sucking up much of your upload speed, then lower its upload slots to 1, put it at LOW priority and at the lowest upload speed max on that torrent that doesn't trigger reduction of download speeds...and put everything else to HIGH priority with more upload slots. If you're downloading mostly from seeds on that 1 torrent, then LOW priority shouldn't hurt its download speed noticeably. And if there's not enough seeds to get "good enough" download speeds, well...tit-for-tat is there for a reason! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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