Problem with download speed [utorrent 1.8]

[kerouac]

Dark Knight leaps from the bushes and slays the ignorant fool.

"Policing users based on easily-spoofed statistics is not exactly the smartest thing to do."

It's comments like this that alienate people, but that was your intent to begin with, wasn't it?

Easily spoofed statistics to me means that's where developers should concentrate their efforts. It doesn't take a computer expert to realize that. Isn't this what the crux of this entire discussion is really all about?

I don't mess with advanced settings I don't understand. They are there for experts such as yourself.

[BJones]

I'm not in on the protocol too heavily, but my understanding is that such a change would require a major alteration to the protocol. If the protocol changes, you can say either 'goodbye' to the private trackers (most use old code packages, and follow-me setup guides. From personal experiance, 90% of private torrent sites are also run by people without a clue about the protocol, but just follow the rumour-mills of the other clueless private site owners. So, we'll either get no private sites, or they stick with the old stuff, and their users stick with old clients. All because they want to leech.

Kerouac, those that are most likely to spoof the stats are also the same type of people that have been bitching here. They want to download as fast as possible, and not upload. They can spoof the tracker announces, but they can't spoof the torrent client restricting their download.

[DreadWingKnight]

Easily spoofed statistics to me means that's where developers should concentrate their efforts. It doesn't take a computer expert to realize that. Isn't this what the crux of this entire discussion is really all about?

There's nothing stopping users from writing proxies to modify the statistics that clients send to trackers. If they have to push it, they can use stuff like freecap or some other proxy wrapper and dig through the requests that way.

BJones has basically nailed the argument on the head.

[CyberMonk]

I'm sure BJones argument is true of some people, but for many it is patently false.

While I don't myself engage in the practice, I know a number of people who torrent numerous files simultaneously and, as such, generally limit new downloads to 1KB/s until they have the bandwidth to spare. They are still utilizing their full upload allowances; they simply distribute their bandwidth in a way such that more upload assistance can be given where it's needed, rather than necessarily on those torrents being downloaded.

That's why this sort of policing is a bad idea. The "ethics" at the root of this policy, while perhaps nice in theory, cause a number of issues for users with legitimate concerns (not just self-serving leechers). Leave it to trackers to enforce ratio requirements if they so desire, and leave the choice on the client side to the user.

[Robinhood]

Just registered to say this new torrent policing STINKS, and that I'm going back to uTorrent 1.7.7.

Maybe if uTorrent wouldn't slow down my connection to a crawl even if I'm downloading at 10kb/s on a 12Mb connection then I wouldn't have to limit my download speeds on my torrents. As it stands, while uTorrent is usable, the "feature" in 1.8 is the straw on the camels back. If it isn't removed quickly or the problem with the program killing my internet connection isn't fixed (and it is the programs problem, I've gone over every possible solution outside of the program) I'll just stick to 1.7.7.

[thelittlefire]

Leecher. 1.8.1 doesn't have the feature to discourage leeching and it is in the Announcements forum. I would rather you didn't use uTorrent being a leecher, but I'm not that powerful.

[kerouac]

As Dorothy found out, you can't go back any more. 1.7.7 has been removed from the download site. Unfortunately, I've moved on to a very similar client and things are back to normal. I sincerely thank the mods for all their help. Meanwhile I'll be watching for a new version of utorrent. Best of luck, all!

[Switeck]

Robinhood,

If uTorrent is slowing your connection you may be using a bad combination of settings.

1st and 2nd link in my signature.

1st one is for troubleshooting, and tells you what information you'll need to give us if the problem isn't solved quickly.

2nd link gives suggested settings for uTorrent based on your max sustainable UPLOAD speed.

NOTE: Max sustainable UPLOAD speed is nowhere near max download speed for almost every internet connection in existence.

[michaelDudikoff]

Just registered to express my disapproval of this new uTorrent policy. It's not your place to limit people in this way. And the worst thing is that nothing is mentioned about this important change. And then you ban people from this forum who point it out. And then you remove 1.7.7 from download site. So I am going to download 1.7.7 elsewhere and downgrade for now. And if this policy doesn't change in the near future, probably switch to a different client.

[thelittlefire]

Do whatever you want. It's out in the update for 1.8 (you must have beta updates enabled or download it manually). Leechers who abused this oversight in the previous version deserve to burn in whatever level of Dante's hell is set aside for people who do whatever they want without regard for others.

[rico98]

just instal utorrent again(if you know a pc its not nessersery you can open the torrent and tip tho,s things you want.and put your download on max and on high by bandwidth allocation)and when you setup you can easy chance those things....rico holland

[Ultima]

And then you ban people from this forum who point it out. And then you remove 1.7.7 from download site.

And then you conveniently ignore the fact that megafonn was a complete troll -- that that was the reason he was banned. And then you completely ignore the fact that we haven't kept multiple versions available for download in forever.

Say what you will; this has always been how we've operated. Just because it happened around something you "disapprove" of doesn't mean we're sporting new a policy around here.

1.8.1.

[BX]

Ok...I registered here to clear up why I lost all torrent management capabilities with uT 1.8.

Then I saw this:

Did it exist in 1.7.7? No?

Does it exist in 1.8? Yes

Is 1.8 an official new version after 1.7.7? Yes

Is it a change from 1.7.7? Yes

Do all users test your beta releases? No

Do they look into changelog for what has been changed? Yes

Does it exist in changelog "last edited by Firon (2008-08-11 05:27:26)"? No

does it exist in any documentation about the software? No

Those are good points.

If you don't want to be limited to 12x the upload cap for 1-3 KiBps change your client. uTorrent allows a great range of down/up-loading values all within the same small-footprint client.

I will change the client... with an unlocked version of uT1.8.

SHARING IS REQUIRED BY THE BITTORRENT PROTOCOL

Yes it is, but let us choose how to share, don't impose your rules on us.

I have around 10:1 U/D ratio on all private trackers, so I can say I can manage my down and up just fine with no restrictions.

Btw, why was 1.7.7 removed from your site ?

Did you have to join the conspirators too ?

Are you gonna setup sandvine flags next ?

YOU ARE BAD FOR THE SWARM WHEN YOU ONLY SHARE AT 1 KILOBYTES/SECOND!

The situation is, at least for me like this:

I have around ~100 torrents at seed at a time.

When I download a new one, I set the upload limit to 1k. The download is ready in a few minutes (I have 28MBit dual pipe).

When the download completes, I enable the full download. Also, I limit to 16-64k/s the torrents that have a lot of seeders.

This can't be bad for anyone since they get full speed from me in a matter of minutes.

And if other clients are stupid and they impose things, why do you have to make the same mistake ?

Lots of users were using uT exactly because it has no stupid rules to limit your torrent management.

And all I'm proving by removing the limiter is that it's too easy to fuck the BT system and leech away without support of other clients.

The limiter assumes you deal with standard users that have standard settings and average speeds.

That is not the case for others. This limit practically destroys all my torrent management system that gets me full download speed for all files that I want to get fast and long lasting upload for all files that require this, and my good ration everywhere form there on.

Concrete example: It's pointless to seed a torret that had 125 seeders and 5 leechers. Bandwidth will get consumed for nothing and the leechers that get other torrents with low seed number ... will wait bloody ages. So it's better to allocate the bandwidth to the torrents that really require it, instead of uploading for the sake of doing so.

Your settings are probably dooming someone to being unable to finish the same torrents you were downloading. By lowering upload speed to just 1 while downloading, you are sabotaging the rarity piece equations that ALL BitTorrent clients use to decide what to download next. You're offering pieces that you can't deliver in a timely manner precisely because of the very low upload speed.

As I have stated above, I only limit the ones with a large number of seeders and when I want to instant-download. I don't think a few minutes of waiting will hurt a leecher.

Worse, if you allow multiple upload slots per torrent...it means you don't even CARE about others' experience, because if/when you DO upload to them, your 1 KiloBYTE/second gets split multiple ways.

I automatically switch between 1 slot / 1k/s and 15-25 slots / infinite speed after the downloads complete or when necessary.

By the time the torrent is completely downloaded, sure you raise your upload speed...BUT THE DAMAGE IS ALREADY DONE.

Again not the case for me. I don't do any damage; I just do very good bandwidth management. And again, that's why I have 10+ ratios and full down/up speed at all times. I get tons of 'thanks for seeding' PMs for high-speed seeding things that noone else does.

By emphasizing your demonoid ratio, you show you care more about ratios (something done partially for your own benefit) instead of helping others.

Well, me...I don't. Large ratio is good because you level-up on private tracers and you account can become immune to disableing when you have larger periods of inactivity, for example.

But that's not the objective. The point is to allow everyone to get what torrents they want. That's why I do very strict BW management - to allow users in difficulty to get the benifit of my speed.

I repeat, it's pointless for me to seed a torrent with 10+/1 s/l ratio. I don't help anyone this way. It's better to seed a 1/10 s/l torrent with full BW. That's called helping. And although the ratio would be about the same, there are two totally different situations here: the one where you just make ratio and the one where you actually help. As excuse me...but I choose to help.

Good thing you're removing this from utorrent in 1.8.1.. I was already getting ready to either downgrade to 1.7.7 or to get another torrent downloader.

Everyone that wants good bandwidth management will NOT USE 1.8.

I just got back 1.7.7. Everything works just fine; I can allocate the BW exactly where it's needed.

Second: Everyone has different bandwidth rates and even allocates various ratios to simultaneous torrents. Putting download-upload limitations would only make torrent clients another version of e-Mule nothing else. You are in no position, unless you know all users' bandwidth and client settings, to determine which rate would fit best and satisfy all users.

True. That's exactly my point. 1.8 is made for 'granny' users that don't do any BW management.

Putting limitations cannot stop hit-and-run activities. Not even hurt them seriously because those guys probably would develop workarounds faster than you.

True again. I can make an unlocked version of 1.8 and flood the internet with it. But that won't be good for the uT team's rep. And then the patch war will start, and then some tracker banning some clients. I suggest everyone uses 1.7.7 until a good choice is made.

If you cannot get some torrents at the speed you wanted, it is because you are getting a torrent which s not so popular. It will happen for all protocols. It is a matter of popularity not forced seed. Accept it you cannot all you want. Nothing can stay on seed forever.

I just debated this situation, with a good example of BW management.

Sixth: do not assume the position of shaping torrent swarms on your personal preferences.

Correct.

Users may prefer to get the file as fast as possible by minimizing upload and then seed it at higher upload rates. This is a preference of many people forrecent movies.

That's what I do with the torrents I need ultra-fast.

And believe me...I've tested hundreds of scenarios and this procedure is overall better.

Remeber you are not the only torrent client. utorrent was popular because you have provided so far to the community what t wants. If you put your personal preferences in front of our demands for a freeware software then we will find another client. This is how it works.

True.

Upload slots per torrent limit is the max number of peers to upload to per torrent at a time. If you're NOT uploading to a peer, it may snub you and not upload to you...and even later disconnect you if you never upload to it. uTorrent will AUTOMATICALLY reduce used upload slots, to 1 per torrent if your upload speed is too low. It can't be disabled. So if you tell uTorrent to use 4 upload slots (the default number unless you ran Speed Guide), you BETTER tell uTorrent to upload at least 4 KiloBYTES/second PER TORRENT or 4 upload slots will not be used.

You are limiting the choice. It's like the Patriot act and Homeland Defense that cancel out all out liberties. And all that because the ones that write them say it's better for us. Well, it's not ! It's a restriction, a limitation, the freedom of choice is gone !

Don't think for a second that I agree with all these decisions, however the end result is good enough.

The end result is dezastrous for anyone that can do good BW management.

And I didn't use the beta because I need a stabile client to seed with.

Thank you for reading this if you did.

I hope I made my points clear.

[Firon]

Pay attention retard. 1.8.1 doesn't have the limiter anymore.

The limiter was originally there because people like you, and others, stupidly limit their upload too much or try to seed way too many torrents. You shouldn't have the freedom to screw the system. You're not really doing bandwidth management. You're leeching. You're calling it by another name, but that's still what you're doing.

A better choking algorithm will eventually deal with the leechers on torrents that aren't incredibly top heavy.

[BX]

Sir, I understand that some users hit & run and some totally limit the upload, but even so, public trackers work just fine and the respective users get their punishment from the private ones. And if I'd be leeching I wouldn't have the ratios I currently do.

And screwing the system - that's a good point, but it has it's reverse, because hen you implement countermeasures, a lot of other-then-the-cheater users of that system will suffer (and this is valid for any system of laws).

[thelittlefire]

It's out. dead. over. done with. The fact there was a limiter since 1.4 means it's something important EVEN LUDDE agreed on that. Leechers don't deserve anything. You can claim all you want "but I seed after" the fact remains you download faster when you upload. Not enforcing some sort of minimum seeding is part of what allows people to run such stupid settings in the first place. uTorrent is the most configurable in this regard and I applauded the loophole which was in for the 9 month testing phase and until leecher whining had it removed.

I highly anticipate seeing "A better choking algorithm will eventually deal..." in action, which I hope means it will be able to 1) deal with the clients which still re-connect rapidly to get free pieces and 2) upload parity is more important than total-data-to-date (What you see right now in Debug column in Peers tab while currently in initial seeding mode)

[Switeck]

You probably weren't even aware of the upload slot auto-limiting controls. Nor of the half open connection limiting. Or that clicking manual tracker update in the past didn't always do a manual update right then. You'd probably object to some of that too, if you KNEW about it. But it's there to reduce tragedy of the commons...where everyone wants a high download speed and is perfectly willing to reduce their upload speeds or amount they upload total to get it. And it's intended to be as unobtrusive as possible.

You have to look at the other end of the spectrum...there are lots of people that set global upload speed to 10 KiloBYTES/second (even though their line is at least slightly faster) and try to download 10 torrents at once with 10 upload slots each. So their upload speed from other people's point of view would be 1/10th KiloBYTE/second if there were no auto-reduction. uTorrent won't stop their torrents, but reducing their upload slots to 1 per torrent will make their minimal upload more useful to the torrent swarms they are on. Ironically, that will likely improve their download speed too.

[Smoovious]

You could always just let the seeding queue do its thing too...

Torrents that haven't met your seeding goal, if you have one set up, are prioritized first. (the * in the # column)

(oh, btw, if you don't have one set up, please set it up to at least prioritize seeding for 90min? Makes for a smoother transition when you turn into a seed. Especially if you're the only one left with the missing pieces)

Torrents that are seedless but have peers on it, get prioritized next.

Torrents that have a peer-heavy seed-to-peer ratio, get prioritized next.

Finally, ratio is taken into account.

This assumes that ya haven't screwed up the related advanced options.

Please try to only keep a couple/few active seeds at a time. Slow seeds aren't counted, and more torrents will be activated if need be. You can set what counts as 'slow' in the advanced options. Also, keep your upload slots low. The faster you can get a complete piece out, the faster the peers can pass it on. Oh! And make sure you're seeding at least 1kB/s per connection at all times the peer is unchoked. Nothing irritates me more than having one of my limited connection slots wasted on a peer who can't even manage 1024 bytes per second.

Oh... and before I go, one pet peeve of mine to all of you recent posters with the attitude that we owe you something...

WE DON'T.

You can "demand" anything you damned well please, and it is worth NOTHING WHATSOEVER.

You have no right to make demands... you are not in a position to make demands... You haven't paid jack shit for µTorrent. The only reason µTorrent exists is because ludde wanted to make it for himself, and eventually, decided to make it available, for free, to the general public.

You are using µTorrent as a COURTESY. Not as a CUSTOMER, you ungrateful pieces of shit.

If you don't want to use µTorrent anymore, you go right ahead and go to a different client, and we won't be the least bit dissapointed by it. We don't work on µTorrent to be the #1 client. We work on it because we like what it has become, and want to continue to make sure it doesn't turn into yet another BT-hostile client like so many others out there.

Piss and moan all you want to... but frankly, threats to downgrade or switch clients, and your demands... DON'T MEAN SHIT!

Affectionately yours ...

... Smoovious

[thelittlefire]

Well, EEP! >< I didn't know I wasn't even in the deep end as far as the leecher whining getting annoying.

Fact of the matter is, many people overload their lines... Thanks for the itemized queue rotation Smoovious

[cassius335]

@ Smoovious: Calling people "ungrateful pecies of shit"? Yeah... stop talking, because we've stopped listening.

[thelittlefire]

Leechers do deserve that special level of hell though.

[cassius335]

True, but there's a difference between leeching and trying to prioritize things (which is what it sounds like BX is trying to do).

I usually limit uploading for stuff I'm downloading (to 7KB/sec, because i didn't realise the per torrent cap was lower) because I've got other (completed) torrents that need the upload bandwith more ...and when you've only got 20KB/sec or so to play with, every KB counts. If a downloading torrent is also seeding at your max upload, that means any other torrents that could be seeding are just sitting there not seeding, building up a backlog.

I don't see anything wrong with making an incomplete torrent wait it's turn if there are other torrents "ahead in the queue", as it were.

[DreadWingKnight]

Then enable the setting that has seeding tasks to have priority over downloading tasks.

[cassius335]

Everytime I use that, it kicks downloading tasks to the back of the queue, usually stopping them completely.

[DreadWingKnight]

Until all your seeding tasks have reached their seeding goal.

As my country's lotto corp says:

"Know your limit, play within it."