Seeding options for ratio/time logic

[bruor]

Hey there,

I've found that if you set the torrent seed ratio, and time settings utorrent waits for the time limit to expire before checking if the ratio has been met.

I have also found that if you have the time setting set globally, you cannot clear it for an individual torrent.

Both scenarios are inconvenient for those that have to monitor their ISP BW usage, or those that belong to a specific, ratio-free private tracker.

Am I missing something in the gui, or possibly buried in the advanced settings that will accomplish this? If not I will file a feature request/bug report so we can get this fixed!

[jewelisheaven]

The Queue settings can be overridden per torrent. Right click, Properties

If you're feeling overwhelmed by the GUI, check out Ultima's guide by pressing F1 in the client

[bruor]

I know that you should be able to override the settings per torrent, but for me if you clear the time box by setting it to 0 on a single torrent, then close and re-open the properties for that torrent, the global time setting is still there.

ALSO, this doesn't address the logic discrepency of allowing the torrent to stop when it reaches the ratio OR time limits vs. what it presently does which is:

IF seedtime >= time limit AND ratio >= ratio limit THEN stop torrent.

It would be useful if it would do something like this:

IF seedtime >= time limit OR ratio >= ratio limit THEN stop torrent.

[jewelisheaven]

If you only want 1 conditional use 1. It's not an OR. It says seed while. Meaning the conditions must turn FALSE to stop.

[bruor]

OK,

here is why this screen is confusing, and not working as expected. Hopefully I won't have to re-explain myself a third time to you and you will understand where I'm coming from. I've also resolved the issue with global setting overriding per-torrent settings, restarting the client fixed that up for me.

The text on the settings widow reads:

Seed While [Default values]

Ratio is: <= X% or seeding time is: <= (min)

the important part in the above is the OR. This would mean in english that if either condition is met, stop the torrent. However, If you have the ratio set to 1, and you seed to 1 before the setting on the time condition is met, the torrent keeps on seeding until the time condition is also met which is wrong.

[jewelisheaven]

I understood you the first time. You're not the first person to be confused since it's not a logical OR.

Search for seed time by Ultima, and you'll read far more than I have the time to write, even in the manual.

[Switeck]

Seed While [Default values]

Ratio is: TRUE or seeding time is: TRUE

Seems to me that if either one is TRUE, keep seeding.

Now if it said stop seeding IF

Ratio is: >=% or seeding time >=hours

Then if either one was TRUE, stop seeding.

[bruor]

After reading the suggested material, my eyes saw clearly that this is in fact the case. Also noticed that there is already a feature request for allowing user selection of while vs until for this logic, but in the meantime i'm hoping to write a helper app that scrapes the webui for data to accomplish this *while this feature isn't implemented* :Þ

The reason this is commonly misunderstood by the user however, is because the english used to describe the conditions isn't common for people to encounter, especially when time is used as a condition. If i wanted to clearly communicate a point to my staff I wouldn't ever tell them to do something in this manner. examples:

Run WHILE you haven't traveled 1 mile OR 30 minutes haven't passed.

Cook WHILE guests aren't satisfied OR 60 minutes haven't passed.

While these logically mean the same thing as that in the uTorrent interface most people you ask to decode this would tell you that they can stop doing the task when they "reach" either goal. Reached is quoted because people will assume the already met requirements as false even thought they are logically true because people are also not used to dealing with reverse logic in everyday life. Essentially the user turns this into an inverted OR (AND) without batting an eye or even thinking that they may have interpreted this wrong.

If you want the person to correctly interpret the above while still using the word "while" the following english would do the trick so that they mistakenly get the right meaning. This is also what most seem to think the UI should say when they relize that uTorrent isn't doing what they think it should have:

Run WHILE you haven't traveled 1 mile AND 30 minutes haven't passed.

Cook WHILE guests aren't satisfied AND 60 minutes haven't passed.

But, if you want to ensure that logic guru's and software dev's dont get confused, you have to resort to until. Most people with any programming fundamentals course can change an until statement into a while while keeping the intended result straight in their mind. I offer the following HUMAN phrases, Human interpreted logic, and code-logic counterparts:

Run UNTIL you have traveled 1 mile AND 30 minutes have passed.

run while( not( distance<1mile OR timerun<30min ) )

run while( distance<1mile OR timerun<30min )

Cook UNTIL guests are satisfied AND 60 minutes have passed.

cook while ( not( guests<full OR timecooking<60m ) )

cook while ( guests<full OR timecooking<60m )

seed UNTIL ratio >= target AND time >= limit

seed while ( not( ratio<target OR time<limit ) ) )

seed while ( ratio<target OR time<limit )

Anyone reading this post should be able to see that when a user is confronted with the task of setting 2 goals their mind assumes that they are being asked for limits that will stop the already running task. Their mind also assumes that the use of OR dictates that either condition "limit" being "reached" calls for the cessation of the requested action in the first place.

A simple change of wording to the interface would save a lot of energy for everyone posting and responding on the forums over this simple to resolve issue.

[hermanm]

I'm glad I'm not the only one confused by the wording. The original author of µTorrent is Swedish)]. So, maybe it is a cultural difference. (Swedish vs English, or programmer vs non-programmer). In any event bruor, I agree the µTorrent would benefit from a change in wording.

[Switeck]

Part of the problem I think is people are looking at the seeding rules for when to STOP seeding.

This next line probably contributes to the problem:

"When µTorrent Reaches the Seeding Goal"

Notice that Goal is singular, rather than Seeding GoalS.

This implies for µTorrent to stop seeding it only has to meet a seeding goal, not ALL seeding goals.

"Seed While [Default values]" ...almost seems a translation error. Default values? What default values or when do the values default?

If I change the values, are they still default?

"General/Global Seed While goals/rules:" makes more sense.

[jewelisheaven]

Maybe with more people on the wagon we can get a poll on the state / status of a scheduler rewrite

[bpipe]

OR - is correct for programmers only -)

while (Time < a | Ratio < // | (or) is correct here

{

Seed();

}

But some humans (including me) read this text as:

(Seed until time<a OR ratio< or in other words (stop if foo OR bar), i don't know how native english speaking people interpreter this phrase, but for me (i'm btw programmer and i'm russian) OR is incorrect for this text.

In any case maybe you should rephrase this text, because as i can see it leads to miss understanding for many people.

[Firon]

Using until in the text is pretty reasonable.. we'd have to change the or into an and, though, to keep the text matching with the behavior.

[Switeck]

"When µTorrent Reaches the Seeding Goal"

should be changed to:

"When µTorrent Reaches ALL Seeding Goals"