Pearlsea Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 The idea behind this feature request is to boost your ratio on a tracker. I'm sure anyone new to a (semi)private tracker has felt the woes of having to get your ratio up until you can have a large enough amount of content that you can use that as back up even if what you are downloading currently is not in demand and you would be unable to 1:1 it within a reasonable time period.Also most people have lower upload bandwidth then download.Theres obviously a few ways of getting your ratio up, but theres one method I would like to examine further which is limiting your download speed to the speed you can upload. You can do this manually but its not very practical when you might have other torrents running or your bit torrent is throttled by your isp so you will have varying speeds (my bit torrent "speed limit" is reset every ~3am by my isp). So what I am requesting is an upload or ratio mode where you download small amount to get some data to upload to others then your download is limited to the amount needed only to get more data which peers do not have yet.Thanks for reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreadWingKnight Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 Why not just set things up so seeding tasks have a higher priority than downloading tasks and not worry about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearlsea Posted July 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 I have not used that option but from my understanding it would still allow me to fully download (maybe even before you fully upload a copy worth of data) which is not what I want and it cannot be applied to individual torrents.What I want is to be able to upload the most data possible with the least amount of data downloaded possible to boost ratio and as a side effect this would increase other peoples download speed. The reason I would like this for individual torrents is because you do not always have the conditions for this to be practical. The main use for this is to get your ratio high on a seed heavy tracker on a new torrent, even if you don't even want what it contains you can help the tracker community out and get some ratio out of it without having to download the whole thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreadWingKnight Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 http://www.azureuswiki.com/index.php/User:The8472/Private_trackers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Switeck Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 Predicting the future of what will be the most "useful" parts of a torrent...beyond rarest piece choices...is way beyond uTorrent. Without a means of quantifying and identifying the most useful parts...this is a feature request for the impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xaero Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 Looks like this might be the feature I was looking for.I've noticed that the upload rate falls when downloading. (yeah, i know why that happens now. I created the thread as well).When downloading torrents it first downloads the torrent to the hard drive completely and then starts uploading from the hard drive. Having a 1GB cache (RAM) is no good because it hardly uses it. If we could somehow make sure the ratio stays around 1 then by the time the torrent is downloaded the upload is complete as well (symmetric connection).Second option I was thinking about is connecting to leechers only. So that there are more options to upload to.This drasctically decreases the load on the HDD.What I do now to force upload is run 2 torrent and when the number of leechers fall (no of seeds increase) select don't download in the files section which then drops the seeds and connects to leechers. Once I have enough no of leechers then turn back the downloading. Since I have a limit on no. of connected peers it maxes out on the connection with more leechers than seeds and keeps a good upload and download speed.It would be good if I don't have to do this manually, utorrent if connected only to leechers then the upload and download would remain almost equal, maintaining a good ratio. That again brings a problem up - what if the leechers are not uploading or don't have enough data? specifying a fixed seed/peer ratio for connections would help. A limit to vary from 0-0.5 lets say, would help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moolak Posted August 3, 2009 Report Share Posted August 3, 2009 I believe that a "Ratio Booster" mode would be very useful for those who use private trackers and don't have ultra-fast connections; from my experience, when one uploads a new torrent, if one or more leechers have more UL speed than the uploader they end up having a much better ratio than the uploader, which IMHO is unfair and benefits those who have the $$ to pay for high-speed connections.Such feature would be the reverse of "super seeding", maximizing the amount of data transfer.Of course, to make any sense this mode should only be active under the condition that you are a seeder, not a leecher; further, it should not be active when there is more than one seed.To sum it up: a legit ratio booster mode for those who upload stuff.I think it would be a magnificent feature indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Switeck Posted August 3, 2009 Report Share Posted August 3, 2009 Favoring downloading from peers instead of seeds even when ample seeds available might help a tiny bit...but unless you use Scheduler's Seed-only mode alot your ratio is still at the "mercy" of how fast you download. (...vs your upload speed anyway.)Regular seeding already tries to upload as much as possible, but uploading very slowly to lots of peers is FAR worse than uploading faster to a few peers even if the total upload speed remains the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moolak Posted August 3, 2009 Report Share Posted August 3, 2009 I'm talking about maximizing the ratio (uploaded data) of the guy who Uploads stuff; that one guy who is the sole seeder of a new torrent, the guy who originates the data that later will be spread by those who downloaded it from him.He is the one who should have some benefit from making the stuff available in the first place, instead of a few leechers who have the $$ to pay for very high-speed connections and so, can distribute what they get from the sole seeder way faster than he can, and end up having a ratio many times higher than him, which IMO is unfair.While what I propose may seem against the philosophy of P2P in a general sense, in the realm of private trackers it makes sense; since people are only allowed to download based on their ratio, the ones who take the time and effort do make new stuff available should get a "boost", in a legitimate way (no cheating!) instead of favouring those who can pay for faster connections and can just leech away all day long; those guys usually stop seeding the moment they finish a download because by then their ratio will be way above 1.0, and the torrents die soon.In a perfect world where everybody shares generously and where there are no ratio-based trackers, it wouldn't be necessary; in the world we live, this would be a welcome option, as long as it remains active only while there's only one seeder, and only for that seeder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Switeck Posted August 3, 2009 Report Share Posted August 3, 2009 What you propose is very anti-BitTorrent specifically. Force others to NOT share? (...So you, the first seeder of a torrent can get a higher ratio?) Because others WILL share the completed pieces they get...and if their line is a lot faster than yours, GOOD! The point of BitTorrent is to take as much load off the initial seeder as possible by having others upload as well.It's not that BitTorrent is broken, it's that private trackers/torrents are! The whole torrent swarm system must balance. The only way someone can have a ratio greater than 1.0 is if others do not. Any private tracker that insists on maintaining a ratio of 1 is defying reality...and/or just looking for an EXCUSE to constantly ban 1-10% of their remaining member base...kicking off anyone with less favorable Bittorrent conditions or whatever other totally arbitrary conditions they care to dream up. Don't think that a fast connection is the answer to maintaining a good ratio on a private tracker -- if you're firewalled you WILL get banned and probably pretty quickly!Many private trackers have trouble keeping track of everyone's upload/download amounts, sometimes grossly underreporting the amount uploaded due to failed tracker updates. If someone is using some sort of cheat program/trick to fake their ratio, their methods may at least initially look like someone ELSE is cheating instead of them. Then there's the hacked BitTorrent clients that can use DHT and/or Peer Exchange even on private torrents...potentially pulling in "outside" seeds and peers. Because of this, you could be uploading to someone who isn't connected to/with the private tracker and does not report their downloads/uploads -- your upload bandwidth gets "spent" and you gain no "points" with the tracker.If someone is not the primary/original seeder AND they leave with a ratio considerably higher than 1.0...private torrent/tracker or not, they have done their part and played fair. But if for some reason that puts the torrent at risk of becoming unseeded, that means someone ELSE isn't playing fair. If you wish to address that unfairness, please make another message thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moolak Posted August 3, 2009 Report Share Posted August 3, 2009 Ok Switeck, what you say makes sense in the world of idealism, but not in the reality that is the existence of private trackers.You're focused on the academic view of "sharing bandwidth", which is quite valid in itself, but forgetting that what actually matters is the content; so the ones who make the content available in the first place (the initial seeds of a freshly-uploaded torrent) are being penalized while the fat cats that can pay for high-speed can sit comfortably just leeching, and it's OK because they're "doing their share" by redistributing the content.Bandwidth without content is worthless.You'll be sharing nothing if it wasn't for the first uploaders.And barking at the private trackers' ratio requirements won't change a thing; but allowing the uploader to get a better ratio may change things... when the legions of leechers who do not keep stuff available after the download finishes realize that the only way for them to keep their precious ratio is to keep stuff seeded for as long as possible.So if your position is that a tracker who enforces ratios is wrong, implementing my suggestion would be one of the ways to drive that point home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Switeck Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 Downloading parts of more torrents in the hopes that others will download from you...will likely just dig you a deeper hole on your up:down ratio.Breaking compatibility with the BitTorrent protocol to provide a special "Ratio Booster" mode won't happen.I'm sure you could make a .torrent with horribly bad settings as well as upload in a terribly inefficient manner so nobody else has anything to share until practically everyone are all seeds....But after a few hours of that, probably most of the people trying to download that torrent would likely bail on you. Worse, they'd probably be mad you're trashing THEIR ratios...so before long you might not have to worry about your ratio on that private tracker! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moolak Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 Downloading parts of more torrents in the hopes that others will download from you...will likely just dig you a deeper hole on your up:down ratio.I've never said anything about downloading, I'm talking about uploading/seeding.Breaking compatibility with the BitTorrent protocol to provide a special "Ratio Booster" mode won't happen.Now we're getting somewhere! So, what I propose would break the protocol, it would be technically outside the specs or implementation of the protocol? If so, then end of story.Worse, they'd probably be mad you're trashing THEIR ratios...Well, you said yourself at the first quote that "downloading from others in the hopes that others will download from you...will likely just dig you a deeper hole on your up:down ratio." so I see a contradiction here.When someone downloads anything, he/she should do so because that content is interesting to her, not because her connection speed would allow a ratio boost; I see this happening a lot, people DLing unwanted stuff (that goes to the trash can immediately) just to have the ratio boost due to their very fast connections, so effectively they are wasting resources by using up the global available BW and clogging 'net traffic... then ISPs throttle BT wholesale to try to curb the abuse.When I see something I like, I know it is gonna "cost" me that amount of bytes to get it, and anything I can scrounge back by reseeding would be a bonus, not a given.So I only DL stuff I actually want to keep, and as a result, I keep all my DLs in seed mode.No waste, no senseless DLing here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Switeck Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 moolak, I never said you did. Pearlsea said, "What I want is to be able to upload the most data possible with the least amount of data downloaded possible to boost ratio and as a side effect this would increase other peoples download speed."I was pointing out the folly of that.I cannot think of ANY way you can "force" peers to not upload to each other without breaking the BitTorrent protocol specs, either in spirit or in practice.My above statement about:"Downloading parts of more torrents in the hopes that others will download from you...will likely just dig you a deeper hole on your up:down ratio."...Is only very loosely connected with:"Worse, they'd probably be mad you're trashing THEIR ratios..."Even if it's for a file they really want...Not many people are willing to tolerate taking DAYS to download a <400 MB file on a fast line, especially if it's on a private tracker. That they would have little chance to upload what they have to other peers while doing so would grate on their nerves further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moolak Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 I cannot think of ANY way you can "force" peers to not upload to each other without breaking the BitTorrent protocol specs, either in spirit or in practice.By using a reverse of the super-seed: prioritize uploading to those peers who are taking longer to pass data along (within reason, or there will be no data distribution).So you would give more to regular, 'home' users who normally have asymmetrical connections, and choking the seedboxes or the guys who DL stuff from work...Also, in a commercial usage scenario, with BT as a means of distributing a company's data (software updates, etc) it would guarantee that the most BW will be offered by the originator (who is either charging $ for the data or offering it as a contractual obligation) and little BW from the commercial clients will be used to redistribute the data. Call it "commercial mode" instead of "ratio mode".The level of choking could be subtle, to give just a little bit more ratio, or drastic, for full-fledged commercial usage, where the clients may complain that the seller is using their BW to redistribute the seller's content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Switeck Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Ok, this method doesn't sound as bad as creating intentionally sabotaged torrents and using horrible uTorrent settings.BUT...How do you propose detecting which ips are fast uploaders?Initial seeding can only do so indirectly, by spotting if/when uploaded pieces are reported by other peers (who downloaded them from the peer you uploaded it to)....And I believe peer favoritism, especially to the degree you're proposing, has been permanently and repeatedly denied.Worse, your method would only work till other peers get completed pieces to the fast seedboxes...then they would quickly upload them to everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moolak Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 I'm just making a feature request and justifying it; my knowledge of the inner workings of the BT protocol is minimal, I depend on the BT gurus...Also, my proposition contemplates the point:Worse, your method would only work till other peers get completed pieces to the fast seedboxes...then they would quickly upload them to everyone else.I only want to maximize my data transfer UNTIL there are more seeds; or in other words, ONLY while I am the only seeder.This 'special mode' should automatically revert to regular operation at the moment there is more than one seed in the swarm.This way, the originator of the data gets a 'boost', and the people who downloaded it get an incentive to NOT disconnect as soon as the DL is finished; wanna get ratio? keep stuff seeded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Switeck Posted August 7, 2009 Report Share Posted August 7, 2009 Even if you NEVER uploaded to a 100 megabit/sec upload line, they would get the pieces from other peers...and even if those peers only upload half as fast as you, the fast peers would still get every piece you uploaded in a relatively short amount of time. Your ratio boost would end up being minimal as a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moolak Posted August 7, 2009 Report Share Posted August 7, 2009 This does not match what I see in reality, where I upload a 1 gig file, get a 1.05 ratio and a couple of other peers in the 30-to-40 peer swarm end up with ratios between 1.75 and 2.5.I check the stats, see that those two are the ones to which mu uT client is sending the most data, and they are the ones who can redistribute faster than anyone else... DL at 20k, UL at over 100k.(and this shows how well BT works)So how are they achieving such substantially higher ratios if not for their sheer UL speed AND the fact that uT is giving them preference because they are 'sharing' more ?PS: I don't mind if other peers with a connection as slow as mine get to redistribute well and thus have a better ratio; but the fat cats and seedboxes... I don't like them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Switeck Posted August 8, 2009 Report Share Posted August 8, 2009 It doesn't matter where or how fast the fast peers are getting pieces so long as they get them "fast enough", because ONCE they get them...EVERYONE gets them extremely quickly.End result, their ratios go up FAR more rapidly even than the 1st seeder...even if the 1st seeder NEVER uploaded to them directly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moolak Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 Ran a few tests...Previously, whenever I uploaded new stuff, I had it as my sole seed and paused or stopped all other seeds, also refrained from DLing until it was fully seeded.Result: a ratio of 1.05.Recently I decided to upload a bunch of stuff at once and not stop seeding/DLing other stuff; result: ratio between 1.15 and 1.22... of course it took a whole lot longer to fully seed the new ULs.So... is uT "broken" and can't keep up with multiple tasks as efficiently as with a single task, or is it just that the BT protocol can't handle lots of stuff very well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Switeck Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 Or neither, because of TCP/IP overheads and swarm conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTV Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Such an old topic, butI think the OP was suggesting only this rule:"Download rarest piece ONLY after upload drops below xx% of upload capacity" or "Limit download to a ridiculousy slow ~10kB/s if upload is higher than xx% of upload capacity"This would somewhat increase the upload amount of slow connections on a fast swarm, because the upload wouldnt be slowed all the time because of downloading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Switeck Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Don't you mean..."Limit download to a ridiculously slow ~10kB/s if upload is LOWER than xx% of upload capacity"?(Or go into seed-only mode under some conditions?)Which might prevent a continual severe ratio drop if upload is running slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTV Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 it seems to edit both posts at once.. at least i see 2 posts and cannot edit one of them.. so theyre gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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