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Lack Of "Use Strict Private Annouce Mode"


DaVrOS

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HI... I have been doing some experimenting on popular torrents with large seeder/peer ratios. and doing comparisons with other clients.

And I have come across something.. lets call it USPAM.

Lack Of "Use Strict Private Annouce Mode" >> USPAM

I think this is a must as I have noticed that it seems to not honor the private flag properly. For example.. a Private site might say 50 seeders, 120 leechers

and Azureus with DHT off agrees with that..BUT

Utorrent says 50 seeders, 300 leechers.

I have tested this on multiple torrents on multiple sites.. and have others users come across the same problem. I think it is another leecher or seeder who has not switched off DHT properly.. but it is redirecting through Utorrent. And with a Private torrent and a Private flag.. DHT should not be an Issue.

I know this has been a problem with other non DHT clients and I hoped it would not also be a Utorrent one.

I think that a USPAM switch is required.

Any others experiencing the effects of USPAM?

Please move this if I have posted in the wrong section :oops:

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I could not agree more.

For private site operators and users uploading to random people nothing to do with the private tracker is in a word "bad".

As far as I can see Azureus is the only client that honours the IP list from a private tracker annouce. I believe from memory thats because it has an option to turn this off and on somewhere (but i could be wrong).

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I have no idea what you're talking about. µTorrent doesn't yet have DHT support and the only private flag I know about is those embedded in .torrent files which request the client not to use DHT, which, in µTorrent's case, is a non issue.

Therefore I have no idea what you're talking about -- I'm thinking you don't, either.

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let me be more specific.

You download a torrent file from a private tracker (which has the Private flag i.e. do not use DHT or Peer Exchange).

The private tracker has a list of registered users in the swarm i.e. IP addresses.

These IP addresses are passed to the utorrent (nothing new here).

Now specifically.....

utorrent allows people to connect to you from IP's addresses that are not in the list of IP addresses supplied by the tracker.

Mentioning DHT might have confused things as it is really only an example of how non tracked users get ahold of IP addresses that are tracked. i.e invade a private swarm

Better?

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So basically you want a way to allow only allow connections from IP addresses returned by the tracker. That would work, but..... any peers which the tracker didn't notify you about (either because there are too many, or they joined the swarm after you did) won't be able to connect to you. So, while this feature would keep out unauthorized peers, it would also keep out many legit peers.

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How can utorrent possibly connect to people not reported by the tracker? There is no DHT or peer-exchange currently implemented, so how can it find out IP adresses if not from the tracker?

Other clients which DO have DHT/peer exchange enabled can tell other clients about you and they will in turn try connecting to you.. It's a pretty big hole in the private tracker implementation, and is a direct result of BitTorrent not being designed with this in mind.

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there are many ways.

Lack of DHT support is NOT the same as stopping DHT users connecting to you.

I know how people like to talk about DHT but thats absolutely and utterly not what this guy is talking about.

Please please lets not fork this into yet another DHT debate *humble*

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So basically you want a way to allow only allow connections from IP addresses returned by the tracker. That would work, but..... any peers which the tracker didn't notify you about (either because there are too many, or they joined the swarm after you did) won't be able to connect to you. So, while this feature would keep out unauthorized peers, it would also keep out many legit peers.

Exactly :)

I realise there would be limitations because of annocue times etc etc but its infinately better than what happens this now on private trackers. i.e. the only solution is to remove the torrent, reuplaod it and repeat every time the torrent is "leaked".

This would be a HUGE deal for use Private Tracker like people as so far the only client that even vaguely does this (based on limited testing) is Azureus and even its not perfect.

p.s. sorry for the double post

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This would have serious negative impact on the health of the swarm. Especially on torrents with many more peers than can be communicated to each client such that your client would reject most incoming connections because they are not known. I'm afraid there is no ideal solution with regards the current tracker protocol..

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I understand what you are saying.

In that case it makes sense for this feature to not be controlled in any way with the Private Flag.

I still believe it would be of major benefit to private trackers though as it is a good solution in some cases.

Would it be possible to implement this feature on a per tracker basis?

i.e. for this tracker use the USPAM option

I suppose what I am asking is would you consider implementing this feature?

I am hoping to recommend its use on a tracker i have some dealings with (to give users the option of a solution to a problem to which this now there is no solution)

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A better solution would be to work with some tracker maintainers to implement a more robust and effective tracker protocol extension...

but surely thats a big deal... i.e. tracker changes then we need client changes to match the tracker changes etc etc

Implementing the feature suggested above would be an instant fix for the problem.

+Plus Azureus already has the feature.... Options>Sharing>Private Torrent only accept peers from the tracker (on by default)

So surely since the most used client has had this feature for a while it cant be all that bad for swarms.

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how bout instead of having a debate one whether or not to implement this have this set as / torrent issue.. or maybe even rules per tracker (which could be a side feature)

where any torrent that uses this tracker would have this option enabled and anytorrent that does not use this tracker wouldnt although i dont know this is possible im just shooting at the sky..

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+Plus Azureus already has the feature.... Options>Sharing>Private Torrent only accept peers from the tracker (on by default)

So surely since the most used client has had this feature for a while it cant be all that bad for swarms.

Thats exactly what I am talking about.

and its the ONLY reason I wont use UTorrent yet on any private site.

Its a fantastic client for public sites and public trackers and when it is able to deal with private trackers properly.. then it will be my client of choice.

DaV

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Even if you had that function, it's still not going to be perfect because other clients will tell other clients about your IP, and you're going to receive an incoming connection from them.

That being said, I use uTorrent almost exclusively on private sites, and I have no problems of the sort you mention. :rolleyes:

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+Plus Azureus already has the feature.... Options>Sharing>Private Torrent only accept peers from the tracker (on by default)

So surely since the most used client has had this feature for a while it cant be all that bad for swarms.

The option you mention is only applicable to the built-in Azureus tracker.

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The option you mention is only applicable to the built-in Azureus tracker.

dcorban thanks for clearing that up :)

I am actually quite happy about this as it opens up the possibilty that this is actually a bug/quirk in utorrent.

If i put some typical figures to this you will see the extent of the problem:

Tracker: Seeds: 128 Leechs: 52

Azureus: Seeds: 128 Leechs: 52-55 (i.e. not perfect)

utorrent: Seeds: 128 Leechs: 1534 (i.e. massively incorrect)

You can imagine how much leeked bandwidth this actually means.

Ideas?

EDIT: fixed your BBCode

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This sounds like a great idea! I've been having similar problems with bitcomet on private sites. I hate azureus, and have been trying to find a new client. I read about utorrent in another site's forum, and it sounded great.

If these external "peers" can't be blocked, though, I may be forced to switch to azureus. I'm installing and setting up utorrent right now, but if I'm gonna be getting external leechers in numbers anywhere near what I get with bitcomet, I'm at risk of being banned from some of the private sites I use since the private trackers don't give any upload credit for bits sent out to those outside peers.

anyway, sorry to ramble on like that, but the ideas posed in the first few entries of this thread seem really appealing; How complicated would this feature be to add?

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Although it sounds like in the long-term that a tracker based resolution is required, i definately agree that the users client could do more to protect those within a private tracker and some further investigation is required.

It can be rather frustrating to see ones bandwidth going to some leech who has no interest in sharing.

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It can be rather frustrating to see ones bandwidth going to some leech who has no interest in sharing.

I quite agree.

I've tried quite a few clients and keep coming back to Azureus, but µTorrent certainly does look promising - except for the issue raised in this thread.

If the option to block external peers does get coded in, then µTorrent could certainly knock Az of top of the list of recommended clients for private trackers.

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So basically you want a way to allow only allow connections from IP addresses returned by the tracker.

Vurlix,

This is something the guys at utorrent should really look into. With Broadband being so cheap these days there are many leechers. A lot of torrent sites are now enforcing registering as a user. While registering as a user you have to agree to maintain a ratio of 1.1. This is great for torrents as it cuts down drastically on "hit n runners."

If you have registered at one of these sites & are trying to maintain a 1.1 ratio the last thing you wanna do is be giving part of your upload to people that have just tagged onto the torrent via DHT.

I've tested utorrent & have to say it's the best all round client I have used to date. However, I can't make utorrent my default client at present until this matter of DHT has been resolved.

I don't have a large upload bandwith so I cannot afford to be at risk of sharing my torrents with those that may have tagged onto them.

If you guys manage to get this sorted utorrent will definently be my default client. :)

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