[PeerFactor+utorrent?]

Yes, I know who Ludde is. And it intruigues me how both OpenTTD and ScummVM, no longer under the management of Ludde, can be open source and not �Torrent.

what is the mystery here? he made ScummVM and OpenTTD open source projects, he has not made utorrent an open source project.

But I guess desperate times call for desperate measures. He's gotta protect his precious intellectual property and make a buck just like every other joe. Just don't be under any false pretenses that this is anything but a testing ground for his commercial ventures.

well, if you say so, then it must be true. utorrent is currently free, should he choose to charge for it, then that is his right. although I would personally find it shoddy, I will either pay up or choose another client. he is in negotiations of selling functionality from utorrent's codebase (good for him!) and yet utorrent remains free and he has stated that it will continue to be, go figure. I must say that I trust his word above yours.

If you can live with that, then by all means continue to use �Torrent to your heart's content.

yes, I can live with that, I do not shun someone for wanting to make money with their own creations. many people actually make an honest living that way. I know, your head must be spinning, but it's really true, believe me.

And for the record, I did not mention "crook". You did.

lol, yes, my bad, you really didn't paint him as a bad guy...

We all need inspiration to create things.

working off someone else's code base is not inspiration. if you make a xerox copy of a painting and add a moustache you are not doing an inspired imitation, you are modifying it. now, if someone programmed his own client that behaved very much like utorrent, it would constitute as 'inspired'.

By attempting to deny me the freedom to tinker with the bits on my own machine, it has become a totalitarian act, a dictatorship. I will do with my bits as I please. And right now, I am using a hacked version of �Torrent that conforms to my vision.

again your arguments are so pathetic they're unbelievable. you yourself chose to download his program to your machine, for free! hell, even at the cost of his bandwidth. and now you demand that he gives you the source code, else he is denying you your rights. lol! you are deying him HIS rights by DEMANDING the source code.

indeed, you are exactly the reason why he should not open the source.

Ludde is, of course, entitled to his own. Just don't force it on me.

ridiculous, he isn't forcing utorrent upon you. if you want it, you download it and use it. you on the other hand are trying to force YOUR vision upon his.

So did the original devs for ScummVM. What's your point?

you brought up the original emule developers vision, I simply stated that the original developers have left since long, and thus it's no longer their 'vision'.

And how exactly have these "rogue mods" harmed the code base?

never said they harmed the code base. they simply harmed the network.

You see that as a failure of control and it is! Real creativity comes not from clutching tightly to your creation, but letting it go to take on a life of its own.

ahh, so now we have the definition of 'real' creativity. so unless it's open source, software cannot be 'real' creativity. I see... good thing Ludde never claimed utorrent to be a result of 'real' creativity, because then he'd be lying. lol. seriously.

It is rather simple, actually. We wrestle with these issues all the time with eMule's code. Unfortunately, it requires moving a lot of the intelligence from the trackers to the clients, which would defeat a lot of Bittorrent's efficiency. To curb private tracker abuse you would need to have a "spy" client connected to the tracker as well as the DHT network. The tracker would then update the client with all the other currently connected clients. The client then parses all the clients it sees in the DHT network for ones matching the tracker's list. It then reports back the results to the tracker, which summarily bans (temporarily or permanently, automated or otherwise) those IPs connected to it. This can all be done in real-time and costs the tracker very little bandwidth, considering only one client is needed to collect the reconnoissance data.

utorrent already respects the private flag, it's hacked utorrent clients (such as the one you are boasting about using) that perhaps do not.

As for manual banning, there really is not much you can do, since it is done client-side.

except not adding it to your client.

I suppose you could perform a statistical analysis over time on the tracker's end to create a composite profile of the types of clients it is rejecting. If all of them are, say, modem users or all clients not from a certain geographical area, then that might raise some red flags. When you understand yourself and you understand your enemy, then victory is assured.

lol, so this is what you meant with "many great minds would have been able to counter such actions with appropriate reactions in a matter of days." yes, thats a surefire solution, and very efficient... "many great minds" should be proud of this... I doubt Ludde has any intentions of doing anything against other clients using manual peer banning, since he isn't 'forcing' his ideals on others, instead he creates his own client that conforms to his.

this unlike the official Emule I might add, which on occasions HAVE forced their ideals upon the ed2k network. the biggest one was the reask time limit else ban, which they set in order to stave the insane reasking that was the result of edonkey hacks and mldonkey settings (I don't know if you were around Emule that long back, but maybe you can look it up) where these clients were trying to reconnect in a frenzy in order to hit the time that a 'slot' opened up. by adding a reask time limit and a queue emule prevented this slot-fishing tactic. lately Emule started banning known 'community' mods, again 'forcing' their ideals upon others. please note that I find both these actions justified, but they are prime examples of Emule 'forcing' it's ideals upon others, very much unlike Ludde, who you are pathetically accusing of denying you your freedom.

utorrent does not have manual peer ban, unlike 'open source' azareus. now, if everyone used the official utorrent client, there would be no problems with bans nor private tracker flags, again you are making truck-sized holes in your own arguments.

...that you totally missed mine. It's not just theoretically likely that there are hacked �Torrent clients, the do exist. I've got a few sitting on my hard drive right now (no, I don't actively use them).

wow! how amazing... and I'm still totally missing your point.

But that doesn't mean that the original developers are somehow obligated to incorporate every feature from every modification. That would just be ludicrious, even ignoring the many conflicting features from various mods! My point is that the mere existance of undesireable forks, whatever they may be, does not implicitly invalidate the original codebase. People may worry about "diluting mindshare", but that is the small price you pay for freedom of choice. It's all about options and not being imprisoned by another's ideals.

then they should program their own client, based upon their own ideals, just as Ludde made his based on his ideals, and if their ideals include open sourcing it, then they should.

if you don't like it, you don't use it. THAT is freedom of choice. All your argumentation fall down on this basic principle, he has the right to do what he wants with HIS code. he has chosen NOT to release the source code now, and he may very well not release it in the future either. Ludde could have chosen NOT to release utorrent at all, but I'm glad he did. either way, it was HIS choice.

you could not accept his right to control the functionality of his own program, even though he offer you to use it for free. and instead of simply using another client, which have open source, you have chosen to use a hacked version of his.

now, since you obviously think you have the 'right' to use a hacked version of his program, HOW can you ever begin to question his right not to give you the source code? you are simply the biggest hypocrite I've seen on these boards, and the fact that you are a Emule forum moderator really shows how bad things must be degrading over there.

[PeerFactor+utorrent?]

Wrong assessment. If you claim to know anything about the science, you must know that any claim or discovery must be backed up with proof that is both observable and repeatable by anyone. What we have now is the product, but not the procedure. Are we then supposed to take the scientist's word on faith? Of course not! He would be laughed out of the scientific commmunity if that were the case. Then again, Ludde is not a scientist, but a businessman. He is more interested in protecting his nebulous assets than serving the global community.

Ludde is not a scientist, utorrent is not a thesis he needs to prove, your scientist analogy has no relevance. he IS serving the global community with a free, low resource well featured bittorrent-client.

And exactly what kind of game is he trying to play, pray tell? Perhaps his ultimate aim is to capitalize on his "hobby"? It makes sense seeing how he's attempting to market his core intellectual property (ugh) to PeerFactor these days. No, this is no hobby. This is free beta testing and debugging.

oh, please. do you even know who ludde is? he is the creator of projects such as ScummVM and OpenTTD, why don't you look them up before you declare him a cynical businessman. some morons around today seem to think that if something is free, it must be open source, else the author is a crook. though I personally prefer open source projects (though I have only briefly worked on one), people like you are the kind that gives open source advocates a bad name. and since your arguments don't make any sense at all, you strike me as someone who just wants the source to be opened for your own dubious means. I for one HOPE that he manages to capitalize on his 'hobby'.

You are correct only in the latter regard. I believe an overwhelming component of function is extensibility, the ability to mold the program to fit your liking. If Ludde is so confident in his "vision", then he should be secure enough to allow others to inspect and build off of his work. After all, imitation is the best form of flattery and any cheap knockoffs will only serve to highlight the superior skills of the original coder.

oh, I'm sure he is 'secure enough', I doubt he has anything to prove, since his client is heads and shoulders above the rest in efficiency. and building on someone else's code isn't imitiation, it's modification.

I would still prefer an oligarchy to a dictatorship. At least then there is the possibility of getting a feature implemented that a single developer doesn't agree with (i.e. plugins, TCP NAT traversal, overhead included in bandwidth calculations, etc.).

lol, dictatorship. can I come home to you and tell you what to do with your computer? if not, then that would be dictatorship by your definition. you are obviously trying hard to paint a black and white picture regarding closed and open source, however, even for such a skewed base logic your attempts are incredible crude.

you are not forced to use utorrent, there are plenty open source alternatives. and if you desperately prefer open source above utorrent then you use one of them. now, given two equal programs, I would choose the open source variant. however, utorrent has no equivalent in open source, hence I use utorrent. and just as I respect every programmers right to place his or her code under the GPL licence or any other licence for that matter, I respect every programmers right to keep their code to themselves.

you don't have to like it, but you sure as hell have no right to complain about it, because it's THEIR code.

A fine example of a solid idea in the midst of many imitators is the eMule client. The developers allow anybody to make modifications to their copy of the source code, even malicious changes, but they don't try to stamp them out. Instead, they adapt to new threats through intelligent design. Furthermore, the vast majority of beneficial developers have strengthened and improved the code over time many times better than the original developers could have ever done by themselves. And all this assistance was done free of charge! Furthermore, most of the modifications come back to original codebase whenever it is updated because they know it is that reliable. The original developers never lost any "vision", they gained the support of a worldwide pool of knowledge and expertise while still maintaining control over their own code.

the original developers of emule has left the project since long. in fact, the amount of rogue mods in the emule community is in my book a good reason why Ludde should NOT open up utorrents source code. and yes, I recognize you from the Emule forum.

Not like it mattered what he thought in the end. People still got their manual ban right along with their ignore private flag features and without having to sacrifice anything. Now, if he had released the code, many great minds would have been able to counter such actions with appropriate reactions in a matter of days.

and please, what would those 'appropriate reactions' be? please, give us a technical description, hell, give us any kind of description. can open source clients such as azareus stop this, if so how?

with your arguing, the Emule devs should have added manual peer ban, communities and leech feature long ago, since it's 'not like it mattered what they thought in the end'. just as there are likely utorrent leecher clients, there are definatly emule leecher clients, so what is your point exactly?

if I were Ludde, every post like yours would be further incentive for me to keep the source code firmly closed.

[Logo (56kers beware)]

whoa, lots of new great designs here! I have to go with BSH's design, it's very clean and polished, though I personally preferred the wacky green eyes (i'm likely the only one), well, it looks like a winner to me anyways! also it has that super-deformed look, so all the japanese will switch to utorrent with a big "HAI!"

happy new year fellas!

[Logo (56kers beware)]

well, since Ludde himself mentioned a bee or wasp, I spent a few hours today trying to come up with something mascot-like, anyway, it's far from done but I did a quick texture/color test on it (one of the great advantages of when doing stuff in 3d), maybe it's a bit to cutesy though, I blame all the christmas disney brainwash these past few days. anyway, here's what I got sofar: