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Problem with download speed [utorrent 1.8]

chomiczek

By chomiczek
in Speed Problems

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Minadale Newbie

Minadale

Posted
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i think the admin should cite an example to why they did this upload/download relationship.. i dont clearly understand why they implemented it cuz what if my max upload is only about 256kb/s and 5mbits on my ISP.. then i'll only able to download torrents at around 2.5mbits?

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noamericano Member

noamericano

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ok i dont really get this 1kb or 4kb and higher upload stuff..... my global upload rate limit is 47kb....and upload slots are 4. am i doing to much? cause you guys are complaining about having 4kb and above, mines like 47kb. am i being stupid? and does that make my download speed slower or faster? i dont really understand whats going on.....

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laura5 Newbie

laura5

Posted
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Megafonn,

I haven't read the protocol, and I certainly haven't assumed the onerous responsibility of developing and maintaining a program (small-footprint or otherwise) that meets its requirements. I leave that task in the capable hands of the uTorrent team, and gratefully follow their lead.

In the meantime, let me commend Fironn's admirable patience. If you really think you have a legitimate beef, may I suggest that you delete yourself from this forum and take your copy of uTorrent back to the store from which you purchased it. I'm sure they'd be happy to give you a 100% cash refund, no questions asked. I know I would. :)

Kind regards,

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megafonn Member

megafonn

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To unsuccessful focus shifter Switeck:

You wrote same stories again and again, you claim I destroy the swarm with noevidence (making it identical to a behavior defined at a some wiki page is a clear proof I guess!!!). I ignore those bedtime stories.

I ask just one request from you: If you cannot answer my questions for any reason don't blur the subject please.

The magic number of 4 was probably chosen because...

Probably means you don't know it for sure and you still make comments. Your opinion is nor more valid than mine: 4 is the number of room corners in developer's toilet.

Why you feel obligation to silence me. If you have no answers to my questions go and hide behind the bush like Firon. Firon tries to ignore the proven fact that an important change has been deliberately hidden from the community. (for proof look for my previous message).

To all those who thinks this messages is about sharing or stupid KB limits with no real effect. It is not. It is about disrespect of developers to users which revealed in a form of misinformation. It is time for developers to come clean and share other hidden changes with the community, if there is any, before we figure out them. soon these hidden changes will storm forums.

Also if nobody can prove why it is 4 then you are trying to make damn fool of your users but be careful you may end up in that position.

I dare the defenders. Prove it that this 4 KB did not popped-up during a toilet activity by putting undeniable evidence of requiring 4 not 3 or 5 KB.

Do not respect users, reserve your place in history of torrent clients.

to laura5:

your ignorance might be bliss. even trust someone who is not honest to you and be more happier. I wouldn't judge your personal preferences like you tried to do for mine.

banning me from this form does not hide the fact that utorrent developers hid some changes from the users. nobody owns the internet. nobody controls the truth. word will spread definitely.

I have told all I need to tell. If they have an answer to give they would have given it. Banning me from the forum means they confirm what I wrote.

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megafonn Member

megafonn

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urahara24 how hard it is to read a long message and understand it?

you want to be sheep guided by a shepherd lost his way, I will not bother you.

I could use 1.7 or 1.6 as many tracker sites recommended without this toilet-corner limitation.

Then who would reveal that there were undeclared changes in 1.8? There were arbitrary rules made up to fulfill developers personal delusions.

Developers play with users by hiding the truth and you defend it. Keep going but stay away from me please.

And how hard it is not to jump into the subject without understanding it?

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LTF Advanced Member

LTF

Posted
Posted

Dear Switeck,

While I think Megafonn is letting his strong feelings obscure his point just a little ('toilet corners'? :)), I have to agree with some of his original point.

The best (in fact, almost the only) broadband connection I can get in my country is about 384Kbits down, 96Kbits up (and that's kind of theoretical for the upload, lucky if you get it - oh, and I pay US$83/month for that BTW!!). In practice, any upload over about 3kB/s and the download speed drops, A LOT, and the uploading speed seems to actually limit the downloading speed, rather than the other way round (ie you can always upload more, and so kill download, but you can't download more and so kill upload). It's bad, but I have no choice, it truly is the best you can get unless you want to pay US$350/month.

Given the limitations of my connection I work hard to maximize my downloading while also seeding to 100%.

Roughly speaking:

UL 2-3kB/s = DL 30kB/s ('fast' - in later paragraphs)

UL 4kB/s = DL 10kB/s ('slow')

UL 8kB/s = DL 0kB/s ('seed')

Generally I run two torrents at once. Experience has shown that when maximizing my download speed, with the speed fluctuations of just one torrent I loose a lot of DL (unless it's a very well seeded one), whereas with two torrents they tend to 'pick up the slack', interweaving to give a constant download speed with individual torrents peaking at a download speed of 28kB/s at times. I use a per-torrent upload cap of 1kB/s to achieve this.

uTorrent 1.7.7 will do any of the above speeds, with one good or two OK torrents.

uTorrent 1.8 will no longer do the 'fast' speed - I've tried, and in practice, on average, the best I can get is the 'slow' speed because of the download=12*upload limitation, mainly because an upload limit of 3kB/s (between one or two torrents) seems to give an actual upload of 4kB/s much of the time. (I base this on the Speed tab, and DU Meter) It's possible that with a single perfect high seed torrent I could do a little better, but with 95% of torrents (the lower seed ones, which is generally what I get) you get speed fluctuations, and with the speed limitations I get all the dips and none of the peaks (up to 28kB/s on one torrent). I can't speak to the technicalities, but I can be sure of the practical result. I've tweaked, and played, and tried different torrents, and there it is. The 'fast' speed is no longer possible.

Assuming I want to upload as much as I download, some quick calculations will show you that if I download at the 'fast' speed for 5.3 hours, and then seed for the rest of the day at the 'seed' speed, I can DL/UL approx. 572.5MB per day. If on the other hand I DL at the 'medium' speed for about 13.7 hours, and then seed for the rest of the day at the 'seed' speed, I can DL/UP about 493MB, which is what is happening with uTorrent 1.8.

So with uTorrent 1.8 I (and those trying to DL from me) am losing 80MB/day (about 14% of my previous totals).

If the 'slow' speed is worse (I've had 8kB/s down, 4kB/s up on some torrents) then I lose out even more (16 hours of 'slow', 8 of 'seed' gives 460MB of download, a drop of 112.5MB or 19.5%)

Of course I could say tough, give up on the seeding, do everything I can to max out my speed, and leech, but I don't want to. I use mostly public trackers, so it's not because of any private trackers' limitations, it's a choice. Note that even if I just downloaded to my old capacity of 575MB, with uTorrent 1.8 at 'slow' speed that would take 20 hours, and that means my upload would be 403MB - so I'd be cutting back my uploading total by 172MB.

And that's why I think this new Download = 12*Upload rule on per-torrent upload caps sucks. I get that you are trying to cut back on leechers but I'm no leech and this is hurting me, reducing my download AND upload amounts.

I wish I lived in a country where this wouldn't be an issue, but I don't, and a lot of people in the world don't even have the option - I'm guessing a lot of people, users and techies alike, are struggling with this issue right now because of connections similar to mine, and some of them are going to give up, say 'f**k it' and just leech as much as they can because it's just got a lot harder to do the right thing and seed properly.

I'm also compelled to agree with Megafonn's point about it not being mentioned anywhere - I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what was going on and if there was anything I could do about it, and I really would have appreciated it being mentioned somewhere in the FAQ, or download page, or help files, so that I could have known that this was a feature, not a bug.

I love uTorrent, have used it for ages (LTF stands for 'Long Time Fan'), have recommended it to hundreds of people, and was one of the early upgraders to 1.8 full version (also emailing about 20 people to do the same at the same time). It's free, and if you want to do this then there's nothing I can do or say to stop you. However I am disappointed that you've made this change (if I'm honest I did feel a little betrayed and untrusted), sad that it's not mentioned anywhere (I was banging my head against the table at 4am on this :)) and at this time I will be sticking with 1.7.7 until either the new system is changed or I can get a better connection some time in the next millenium. It's a shame, because aside from this issue I loved 1.8, especially the tracker tab.

I truly hope you will reconsider this change and revert to previous rules. Leeches will always be leeches, but this damages anyone on a slow or poor connection, and that's a lot more people than many might think.

Apologies for the long post. ;)

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Switeck Advanced Member

Switeck

Posted
Posted

megafonn,

If you're just going to personally attack and insult me...do not bother posting here ever again.

The 4th link in my post is by someone alot more knowledgeable than me about BitTorrent.

But in short, YOU ARE BAD FOR THE SWARM WHEN YOU ONLY SHARE AT 1 KILOBYTES/SECOND!

Maybe it seems like no big deal if there's lots of seeds on a torrent. (and it may not be!)

But on anything else, you're PROBABLY worse than a pure leech because you're offering pieces of the torrent to others that you cannot fulfill in a reasonable amount of time. Other peers and seeds make piece choices based on the assumption that your "available" pieces decrease their rarity. This can cause them to "paint themselves into a corner" where they neglect getting rare pieces...and then possibly the only seed with a rare piece leaves.

The programmer's wishes of the "arbitrary" 4 KiloBYTES/second upload limit has historical precedence in other BitTorrent clients, was done to reduce rampant breaking of the bittorrent protocol by bad settings, and does NOT prevent you from setting upload speed lower. 12 times download speed means a 56k dial-up modem can't hit that limit, a 256/64k "lite" DSL line can't hit that limit, and a single or dual ISDN line can't hit that limit. A shared internet connection might have a problem with that, but it'd have to be pretty rock-bottom on upload to begin with and split a couple ways.

Another way this might be an issue is if you're running lots of torrents at once...probably WAY beyond the numbers I recommend in 2nd link in my signature. Those torrent limits I choose were actually slightly more relaxed than uTorrent's Speed Guide (CTRL+G) suggests...and in some cases get VERY close to the max limits of upload slots that uTorrent will allow at any given upload speed.

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LTF Advanced Member

LTF

Posted
Posted

I should add that if the system was changed to better allow for peaks and dips in download speed (ie download was measured, averaged and limited over 5 minute portions rather than 1 or 2 seconds) then this would not be such a problem for me, though I'd still prefer to go back to the old system.

Not sure how that would work though. Maybe blocks of downloads followed by blocks of no downloads, with uploads going on constantly at the speed of the per-torrent cap. Then if you had two torrents they would kind of take it in turns.

Dunno - I'll sleep on it :)

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LTF Advanced Member

LTF

Posted
Posted

Firon> I'll try it, thanks, though historically that hasn't worked for me. Right off the bat it seems to have dropped my DL speed about 2-6kB/s but that may just be a short-term thing.

UPDATE: Bizarre - I definitely seem to get better speeds with DHT on. I'll keep testing.

I'd be the first to admit that my connection is weird and the ISP have it set up badly - it behaves like a much bigger connection but the UL is appalling!

Unfortunately the alternatives are worse. I (and about 40 million other people) are stuck with it.

Incidentally, I also notice there are upload peaks every minute (up to 8kB/s approximately). What is that? Is it the trackers updating, or DHT (don't think it's that since I've got that turned off right now) or what?

That also has an impact on my DL since the DL speed tanks and takes a few seconds to reach full speed.

Just curious. :)

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LTF Advanced Member

LTF

Posted
Posted

Er... Automatic upload limiting? Is that the thing about 'Seed While' in Queueing or Advanced>bt.auto_ul_*.

Now I'm going to have to find a guide to what all these advanced options mean since the options under 'bt.auto_ul_*' look like what I was talking about with the upload limit sample period above... :o Plus I'm still looking for 'Resolve IPs' to disable as recommended by Switeck in another thread... :)

So many settings, so few brain cells. Unfortunately my GF just woke up, so I guess I'd better sleep! (not because I'm whipped but because it's 7am) ;) Thanks for your patience. I'll be back again tomorrow :D

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Firon Advanced Member

Firon

Posted
Posted

No, it's a checkbox that says "automatic" in the Bandwidth section of the preferences.

That being said, bt.auto_ul* does control how they work.

Resolve IPs is something in context menu of the Peers tab. However, it won't resolve unless you're actually looking at it.

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